United States and that struck us as a very good thing we’re Americans we’ve got families here we care what happens to our country why wouldn’t we care and yet in Washington ramas Swami’s question qualified as a scandal the usual chorus of liars many of them on the so-called right unfortunately
Immediately denounced him as a dangerous bigot they claimed he was pramas which is ridiculous and then they suggested that he doesn’t believe in Israel’s right to self-defense which if anything is even dumber it was a thoroughly disgraceful display and a revealing one but none of it answered the question
That he had raised what is the best path forward here for the United States as well as for Israel and the rest of the world it’s worth thinking about that the stakes are higher than many Americans understand it’s easy to imagine several other nations getting pulled into the
Conflict between Israel and Hamas those countries would include Russia Iran turkey China Saudi Arabia the Gulf States and possibly many more some of those countries might take our side aligned with Israel but most of them would not and that would be a problem the US military is weaker than it’s been
In at least 50 years since the end of Vietnam exhausted by two pointless conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan internally divided by identity politics mismanaged by buffoonish hacks at the Pentagon our services are in obvious disarray check the enlistment numbers nobody wants to join but it’s worse than
That the government that funds our army is bankrupt the man who leads it is scile now is not the time for a World War we would lose but our commander-in-chief has no idea watch this tape from Sunday as he smirks while bragging that America is so rich there
Is no limit to our power we can wage as many wars as we want we’re the United States of America for God’s sake the most powerful nation in the history not in the world in the history of the world the history of the world we
Can take care of both of these and still maintain our overall International defense we have the capacity to do this and we have an o ation to we are the essential nation is to to to Parish phrase the former Secretary of State and if we don’t who does the most powerful
Nation in the history of the world you can imagine the Roman senate issuing a statement just like that on the morning the vizigo sacked their City Pride goes Before Destruction that has always been true it always will be true how do we keep our country from being destroyed V
Gramas Swami has been thinking about that all week he joins us on set now thanks so much for joining us so what do you think the potential for disaster looks like here and I should preface by saying nobody disputes Israel’s interest in pursuing a conflict with Hamas punishing those responsible defending
Itself of course Absol but from an American perspective how could this go wrong so I think that one of the things we ought to do is remember the mistakes we have made in our own recent p in the last 20 to 25 years after 911 how did we
End up in $6 trillion plus of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan thousands of American lives that we won’t get back part of how we ended up there was in the air after 911 you remember it the tolerance for debate was very limited shut up sit down do as you’re told go
Along with the plan I am worried Tucker that’s the beginning of the environment I’m seeing right now as it relates to the current conf we seem deep into that right now we do seem deep into that and it’s it’s in the modern West as we know it I mean even
BB’s former National Security adviser was quoted an article earlier today when he was asked the question of well what happens after Hamas his exact words were I don’t give a damn I used to think think First Act later I don’t think that way in light of last weekend and I
Understand as I did in this country the pain of what people have gone through you respond with emotion but the thing I worry about Tucker right now is what I see is the left-wing criticism of Israel’s what looks like to be soon to be ground invasion of Gaza is about
Proportionality and about Injustice and humanitarian Aid even if you just put all that to one side from a US perspective from an Israel perspective how is this actually going to achieve a good result and my concern right now and as we’re having this conversation it appears imminent that Israel is going to
Mount a ground Invasion into Gaza I’m concerned concerned that a ground Invasion into Gaza without clearly defined objectives is going to be the start of another no- win war that is not good for Israel and not good for the United States and so one of the things
I’ve been thinking about just in recent days you hear a lot of histrionics here a lot of bloodthirsty neocons in fact far less reasonable than even many Israelis that are far more rational about this than some here in the United States is how could this play out right
So if we just think about one reasonable scenario let’s just go step by step in terms of where we are Israel mounts a ground Invasion into into Gaza okay doesn’t have a clearly defined goal but they’ve mattered that ground Invasion that crosses a red line that Hezbollah has previously identified saying that
That’s their red line for attacking Israel and this might be exactly when Israel is mired in a ground conflict in Gaza which I worry could be a trap networks kilometers upon kilometers of tunnels a lot of traps that they could walk into that could be a moment that’s perfectly appropriate unfortunately for
Hezbollah to decide to go after Israel Israel is then in a two-front war both in the North and the South in Gaza now you’re talking about real risk of there’s no way that you’re really going to avoid some level of us involvement there now look at what the Iranian back
Militias and other places like Iraq like you know the the the batter the batter group in Iraq you talk about the houis in remen in Yemen what have they said this is also going to be their red line for involvement so now you have broader regional conflict at a time when you
Have civilian casualties in Gaza that turns the rest of the world’s back on Israel by the way even in the case of success ending up with what fills the vacuum Hamas 2.0 with a bunch of radicalized Palestinians so I don’t think that that I think that’s a really
Unfortunately a reasonable way for how this could play out well wa can I just ask you to pause a sincere question what is the plan I mean this is something the United States has in has preemptively endorsed and is paying for so I think it’s fair to ask that question um what
Is the plan well I think that that’s the elephant in the room that’s missing is that we don’t have from Israel a clear sense of what the objectives are now in the United States we should be reasonably helping our partner who is struck in the case of really a a
Devastating and inhumane hit to their country was barbaric I think our job is to tell them these are the mistakes we made in the wake of 9/11 when that happened to us here this is a time to have a clearly defined objective instead we get histrionics from the likes of
Lindsey Graham or Nikki Haley or Mike Pence offering histrionics at a time when you actually could use rational strategy amazing to get a a moral lecture from people who’ve so diminished our country and who responsible for the deaths of so many Americans lectur you from some high horse it’s interesting
They they they site their for foreign policy experience which uh which I don’t have but they wear it as a badge of honor I think that their foreign policy experience unfortunately shows in terms of the results that they have delivered for this country my view is look a lot
Of neocons here are far more bloodthirsty than even some some more realistic mind in Israel what’s a better alternative to the plan as it currently exists which is a non-plan an invasion of Gaza without a clear objective and I think there’s a real Cascade of events following Hezbollah following likely
Then us involvement following Iranian militias in Iraq to in Yemen involvement would almost I mean especially if it’s involvement in Lebanon or against tbah yeah you could see how that could become a a much larger conflict very very fast absolutely and even think about Israel’s ability to fight Hezbollah the last time
They were in a war with Hezbollah was 2006 it didn’t go very well I was there in you were yes in in Beirut yeah oh I didn’t okay well you would know you would know even better than I how well that one front War didn’t go now imagine
If they’re mired in Conflict to the south in Gaza at the same time and by the way some of those some of those groups in Iraq Iranian back militias they have said that they would strike back and US involvement here strike us Assets in the area in the case of us
Involvement well think about where we have our biggest Embassy biggest embassies in Baghdad where by the way as when we’re having this conversation it’s a little bit chaotic out of Baghdad I don’t think it’s crazy for the Baghdad for the US Embassy and Baghdad even to be evacuated so against those
Circumstances I am worried that this is going to lead to a war that is not good for Israel with poorly defined objectives and isn’t good for the United States now there are other questions we could be asking which are what might be more productive path so there’s got to
Be response Hamas did this the people did it obviously need to be punished yes killed yes um so what do you think they a wiser course for the United States and for Israel would be at this point so I’m running for US president my job is to
Look at this through the prism of us interests but if we’re talking to Israel one of the things we need is what is your actual objective here’s one sensible version that the US could fully support Israel is going to Define its objective and it’s it’s up to the US to
Say here’s what we can support and here’s what we can’t but here’s one version of it that if I were US president I would support all the way through and I happen to think it’s among the best answers for Israel itself think about a world in which Israel has a
Clearly defined objective say the top hundred in Hamas okay we want their heads on Stakes line that southern border of Israel and Gaza with those heads as you build a new border defense there’s your deterrence top 100 people whatever it is a clearly defined objective achieve the actual retribution
And Justice that needs to be exacted in this situation so kill the people who did it kill the people who did it absolutely and is that the top 100 but who are the people in Hamas that’s an achievable objective go in and get that done and I think the US should help from
An intelligence perspective with this I think the US can be helpful with what we might call the Diplomatic Iron Dome let Israel do this to fully defend itself without the UN or anybody else in the rest of the world getting in the way get us allies intelligence sharing the kinds
Of things that don’t get the US involved militarily Israel is capable of doing this the mad is capable of doing this and think about Munich Olympics 2.0 the version of this this is an achievable goal it is proper it is just it is morally Justified and anybody from the
Left in this country or Europe or anywhere who rejects that no this is Israel defending itself as it has the right to do and punishing the people punishing people who actually did it that’s exactly right that seems like a pretty obvious solution and it seems within the the capabilities of the state
Of Israel and it seems like we could help with that and it’s an achievable win right and I would I would sort of even think about now one step further against the backdrop of achieving that I don’t think it’s crazy Tucker for Israel to think about some unconventional
Approaches here I mean I think Israel would wait can I ask you to pause real quick has anyone suggested that that seems like such an obvious solution not that I’ve heard Tucker why I think that there’s a Culture of Fear right now in the United States I’m not speaking for
Israel I’m speaking for the culture here in the US where yes all of us I’m sure you and I included share an emotionally visceral reaction to what happened with Israel being that wrong but I think that emotional visceral reaction has everybody looking to each other to talk
About the periphery of the issue right everybody’s so eager to talk about whether you’re going to condemn the you know college student groups that are making silly statements over here or the hundred million dollars of humanitarian aid over there I see Republicans rushing to you know analyze the mosquitoes on
The elephant’s tail without talking about the actual elephant just seems like if if we believe someone committed murder yeah we find that person and we punish him that’s right so that I it that would seem like the most obvious solution well I think that there are
Some in the US that are so bloodthirsty and have been rooting for outcomes that have really from their standpoint nothing to do with this conflict that might want to use this conflict as an excuse to do what they otherwise might have wanted to do anyway which is reopen
Broadscale Regional war in the Middle East which we haven’t had since Iraq and Afghanistan came to to a close these are cynical forces that exist in some wings of the US but I can’t speak for why others aren’t really clear-headed asking what exactly is our plan of action what
Advances us interests what exactly should we tell Israel we will and won’t support and how could that possibly positively influence Israel to make the right decisions here but I think there’s first principle go after the people who were responsible for this in an achievable goal in a way and I would say
You know metaphorically or or literally put their heads on Stakes make sure that we actually have a clear deterrence that something like this never happens again and then I think there are ways that Israel could really turn the tables so you’re not arguing on behalf of Hamas of
Course I mean the things that people will say on the internet appall me but Hamas is a terrorist group and deserves to be held accountable for the dastardly acts I mean this was this was barbaric it was medieval and I think a direct response to exact Justice from Hamas is
100% morally Justified and as US president if I were in that office I would Pro provide every bit of diplomatic air cover to Israel to do what it needs to do because I’m also looking after the US interest here I don’t want the US military involved in
Some trip wire of a war in the Middle East that we Sleepwalk ourselves into which isn’t good for the us but isn’t even likely good for Israel now I think there are some broader Regional issues that we need to deal with too I mean one of the lurking issues here is the
Nuclear capabilities of Iran and if I had the clear answers if any of us had the clear answers to exactly how you would keep Iran from becoming nuclear weapon equipped you know we wouldn’t be talking about this right now but I think a maximum pressure campaign against Iran economically speaking until they
Actually fully phase out their nuclear weapons is a reasonable discussion and debate to have I think we can avoid doing some really stupid things that we’ve done along the way though in the meantime this year you think about the discussion around transferring nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia why would you
Ever why would you ever want and Saudi Arabia which got some of the deepest energy reserves in the world clearly doesn’t need nuclear plants uh so that technology would be used for nuclear weapons why would you ever want the Saudi Kingdom to have nuclear weapons well it’s even one step worse than that
Right we’ve done civilian nuclear technology transfers I think we’ve done like something like 27 deals with 43 countries Saudi Arabia did not want the terms of those traditional civilian nuclear technology transfers because they require oversight and monitoring to make sure you’re not using them for military purposes so the idiocy of this
And you it’s not just Biden I mean Biden’s idiocy is is high but there’s Republicans going along with him to say that as a condition for getting Saudi Arabia into some type of expanded diplomatic deal with Israel we were going to offer security guarantees to Saudi Arabia and furthermore that we
Were going to offer this nuclear transfer on terms that were different than the historical civilian the idea is to counterbalance Iran I assume but actually if you look at it the other way we’ve had a it’s not I’m not saying it’s a comfortable balance of power but there
Has been something resembling a balance of power this is this summer we’re talking about it Tucker and this is an uncomfortable topic but we can’t just dismiss the possibility that these two things are entirely unrelated I mean right when we have inserted our noses in
To this what I think is a terrible idea of a deal with Saudi Arabia and I think many in Israel and otherwise agreed with me too that transferring nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia on these differential terms and security guarantees that shouldn’t be necessarily what’s required to drive Saudi Arabia
Into a peaceful deal with Israel in some ways we the ones that just stuck our noses and tipped the scales in that balance of power if that Saudi Arabian deal were going to proceed and then what you get two months later this disastrous attack so I think that there are
Complicated factors at work here that we can take our own own goals that we have scored in this process off the table and then all of those savings from a war that we would have avoided you know what Israel and us can use it for protecting our own respective borders I mean that
Was a border crisis of historic proportion but na defense I agree completely and if it can happen in Israel it can happen here too by the way and it is and it is on the regular yes so but just to back up for one click the idea that we would in any way
Abet a nuclear program in any country particularly in Saudi Arabia is so destabilizing and crazy it suggests that people have lost their awe of their fear of nuclear weapons I’m I’m watching people on television on the internet sort of blly talk about the possib of the use of
Nuclear weapons in this conflict I watched it five times yesterday can we agree that anyone who sort of throws out maybe they’ll use nukes is insane you’d have to be a mental patient to say something like that who are these people I mean either that or or so profoundly
Ill-informed about what the consequences would be for the United States and so I really can’t speak for the mental state of some of these people Tucker who were viewing the expansion and nuclear nuclear proliferation to Saudi Arabia are the consequences people saying oh this could go nuclear if push will go
Nuclear they’ll go nuclear go nuclear yeah think about the consons I mean and the consequences of it are impossible to foresee but we can guess yeah so so this is what frustrates me about where we are in this and you know the views I’m adopting here I think
From a political perspective a lot of people have advised me you know this isn’t really where you want to go I think we got somebody has to step up and actually ask the questions that other people are too afraid to ask what are the consequences of the biggest
Thing that’s about to happen if Israel mounts that ground war in Gaza appears to be the next step in this conflict and there’s no clearly identified objective what are the consequences for Israel we asked that as a friend what are the consequences for the United States we
Should ask As Americans and I think there’s a better way there may be multiple better ways to do this but we’re not going to get there unless we have actual unfettered debate on the merits and I think there’s something particularly in the Republican Party actually around the culture of this
Issue that has really stifled that debate the the experience I’ve had I mean the first time you and I met was I don’t know if you remember this was after when I was writing my first book it was in the context of i’ been a biotech CEO and George Floyd died and
This country started acting crazy and there were certain debates you couldn’t have on questions relating to race and and and whatever back in 2020 I I remember what that felt like it was a speech suppressive environment where there were certain debates you weren’t allowed to have and many on the
Left would call me racist as a way of silencing open debate in believing in colorblind meritocracy it feels really similar it feels really similar in a different way right now where isolationist has become the new racist a new label to use as a subtitute saying you hate is yeah
Exactly or or or whatever you could fill in the blank for whatever the silencing label would be you know know I mean pramas ridiculous anti-israel ridiculous but to use that to silence debate on the merits and whether that comes from the left the right it doesn’t much matter
That’s I think the ultimate form of anti-americanism yeah I mean I have to say if you’re attack for asking what’s good for the United States and asking that as an American who’s trying to lead the country if that’s considered out of bounds if you’re being denounced by Republicans for saying that roundly then
The whole America first thing was just a lie yeah I think that I I think it wasn’t a lie when it comes to the people of this country I think a lot of people in the leadership though would like to believe it was a lie like to believe
That it was a passing phase a an attachment to one man where this is a broader Vision that goes beyond well it’s just common sense if you live here and you’ve got children put this country first well that’s your job yeah it’s a moral obligation it’s a little weird
That um you know people are picking sides and the capital got you know invaded by these lunatics pramas lunatics and then you know people are taking the pro-israel side but I I haven’t heard anybody say well you know I have views on all this and I like Israel better than Hamas but ultimately
I’m I’m for America why that seems like the natural position for Americans to take I think it’s the more trustworthy position for Americans to take not only with people at home that’s the moral obligation of an American leader it’s also more credible I mean if you’re one
Of America’s friends abroad and you say that I irrespectively and unconditionally stand with you regardless of my national interest even if I’m sitting as somebody in Israel listening to an American say that that’s not credible that’s obviously fake we said we said that to Ukraine yeah Ian we
Said don’t believe us when we say that yeah it’s it’s it’s it doesn’t make any sense and our adversaries can I think we can draw clearer red lines when we’re just honest about the fact that us leaders should act in the US national interest and the fact that that’s become
Controversial I think shows how far our you know mistaken foreign policy establishment has come but there’s a better way to do this thanks so much yeah uh and apologies in advance for all the trouble this will cause you apprciate thank you
