News we have the verdict now for the former pharmaceutical CEO Martin scy 7 years in Prison you’ve been sentenced to 7 years in prison what do you think Hillary Clinton you you gave her the finger like you didn’t expect to get arrested when you did that what do you think the public missed about your story I think virtually everything to this day
I never made a dollar from D I’m not going to bow down to the government you get taught in school you’re free to do and say as you wish and the government can’t meddle in your life if they feel like it and I learned differently I think the doj’s prosecution of former
President it doesn’t make a difference whether you’re guilty or not because it’s a foregone on conclusion you have a better chance of being acquitted in Russia four separate indictments from four separate divisions of the government Al Capone John Gotti can’t compete with that Sam bankman is going
To prison most likely for a long time Sam’s from an upper class family in California he’s never been around minorities so he asked you your advice on Prison something like that yeah I no Sam there’s no internet in prison it’s a rough place so I said you should learn
Rap music learn slang invent a backstory for yourself where you were Sam B me from Oakland if you think I’m a died see how I live my life every time I read a story about me it’s convicted felon Martin scy everyone says oh you lost four years of life no I didn’t I
Experienced four fascinating years of life on December 9th 2015 Hillary Clinton issued a press release from a presidential campaign office attacking a man called Martin scy Clinton claimed that scy was immoral for daring to raise the price of an anti-parasite drug called Dera Prim scy responded not with
Shame but instead with Defiance in fact he said many patients would wind up paying less for derim and in any case he pointed out no politician had a right to set the prices of a consumer product so effectively Martin scy told Hillary Clinton to get bent 8 days later he was
Arrested a team of heavily armed FBI agents showed up at his apartment in New York and took him into custody scy was charged with Securities fraud in a case that had nothing to do with the price of Dera Prim and then he was sentenced to 7 years in prison he was released from
Custody last spring and remains unsupervised release he joins us now in our studio to tell us what he’s learned Martin scy great to see you thank you for doing this thank you I appreciate it so um this was 2015 2016 that you became Almost instantaneously Famous when the
Hillary campaign decided to use you as a prop for corporate greed um and so our viewers who’ve forgotten you or can’t recall why they hate you so much M uh might have their memories jogged by the following Montage of what it looks like when you’re the most unpopular man in
The world here it is the so-called most hated man in America is an even bigger jerk than we first thought that’s what Martin scr’s critics are saying about these new secret memos that show he bragged about jacking pill prices for the sick so he could get filthy rich whether he’s committing Securities fraud
Or trolling people on the internet scr doesn’t think he has to answer to anybody the 32-year-old former hedge fund manager became an internet Pariah headlined as the most hated man in America the most hated man in America most hated man in America the most hated man in America the phase of evil Pharma
Martin scy so overpaid news anchors thought you made uh too much money you feel like and I I’ve never defended Pharma in my life and I’m not going to now but I feel feel like maybe there were facts omitted from that summation of your case definitely a
Few facts so summarize so for people who remember hating you because you raised the price of this anti-parasitic drug by 5,000% or something what um what do you think the public missed about your story I think I think virtually everything you know and uh when the media can find a
Way to tell a story that sounds great and sells clicks for example Bloomberg’s number one story of 2015 I happen to date the reporter that covered me uh which was its own Fiasco wa you dated the reporter covered you did she she ended up this woman named Christy SMI
She’s a wonderful lady she was the court reporter for Bloomberg senior reporter in the business for a long time and Bloomberg consistently sort of tried to lean on her to not report kind of evenly and it was the number one clicked uh news article for Bloomberg that whole
Year and uh you being bad yes and so that was your time in the barrel everyone in public life you know experiences that you really did at at maximum velocity what was that like I think it was like surreal you know I mean I I uh was defiant because I
Couldn’t imagine this was happening I I thought it was all joke you know could could like when when is everybody going to come out and say oh just kidding you know uh and and of course that wasn’t the case so every time I double down you
Know the opposition if you will sort of double down as well and it got to this brinksmanship almost of like me telling politicians like Hillary and so forth like you can’t do anything about this it’s it’s it’s a sovereign right of a business it’s not sovereign but it’s
Very like cherished right of a business to be able to choose its price for its product and and you this idea that you could interfere with that right is so anti-American so against everything I learned in school and in business that it was like um just surreal that that
Somebody thought they had that kind of power over a company imagine her trying to tell Tim Cook hey your iPhone’s too expensive you got to lower the price 200% what does an iPhone cost it’s like a thousand bucks and everyone kind of has to have one yeah does anyone
Complain about that nope why do you think I I do think there’s a lot of fair or not I I think you think it’s unfair I I probably have the other position but there is a lot of like resentment toward Pharma do you think that was part of it oh absolutely it’s
The most hated industry uh of all the industries and and I uh I remember challenging they kind of brought me up in CVS to be an expert um you know speaker on a panel about uh drug prices this is when the epip pen this is Joe mansion’s daughter yeah yeah raised the
Price of EpiPen uh for the same reasons and I feel totally legitimate and uh everyone was a gas you know that oh people can’t afford EP pens now they’re really important in medicine and everyone’s screwed and I asked the CBS people I said hey do you know do you
Know what the net margin of CBS is no clue so do you know what the net margin of milin is that Joe mansion’s daughter’s company CBS makes twice as much profit as as myin so you have a company that makes a life-saving medicine EpiPen which literally could
Could be the the dis difference between life or death and then you have a company that makes reality TV shows and sensation yeah and and one of them which one deserves profit you know I I think capitalism is a a function that sort of assigns profit to the deserved and um in
This case you know this Pharma company milin makes like one out of every 10 medicines in the world and they kind of deserve the right to stay in business and keep doing that whereas you know you know how I feel about CBS yeah and and for good reason um
So you’re running this company you get attacked in public you become a prop in the Hillary Clinton campaign the media as always on Q aligns their coverage with her propaganda priorities they’re sort of a seamless unit the Hillary campaign CBS News NBC Jep Smith um but
Your job at that point is to sort of bow your head and say busted you caught me I’m sorry I’m going to give money to breast cancer research why didn’t you do that it wouldn’t it would not have been hard to resign even like even stage a a
Firing you know and have my board tell my board hey you guys can fire me to make this look good so our company can continue and be successful and like you know usually that’s the the solution is off with their head of the CEO uh or the
Number two option is is a PR campaign of laying low you know you pay you pay a big dcpr you know firm $300,000 and you they just tell you to you know don’t say a thing and that’s you know this will blow over the new cycle will change and
I dug in because you know I really felt like a few different Dynamics are at play the first is is that CEOs are not allowed to have personalities anymore you know and I think you see the the handful that do the Elon and you know others you know they get criticized
Routinely for their personalities and what Corporate America and Boards want to see is a CEO that’s you know just completely you know uh impervious to attack eat a massive pile of dung and keep going yeah yeah I I think that you know the so when you when you have a
Personality that’s defiant or or something that you want to be um you you know a hill that you you’re willing to die on for me that Hill is capitalism and it’s our American way of life and it’s this hill that no politician can tell us business people what our prices
Should be I know but Hillary Clinton you you gave her the finger like you didn’t expect to get arrested when you did that I think that I I was a little naive that you know um that what we learn in school you know that that when we pledge
Allegiance and that we will learn about the First Amendment and all this stuff that that it’s not connected that the courts are not connected to the media and they’re not connected to politicians and they’re not there’s not this we that really does exist and part of me
Feels like is the web consequential or is it set up ahead of time and sometimes it’s both you know I think the prosecutor that went after me for example he may or may not have gotten you know an order from somebody but he may have just felt like well this is a
Guy that I can make a career on he’s super unpopular let’s send him to jail yeah it’s it’s I’m the good guy he’s the bad guy what good guys do we we caral him and throw him in jail it’s the story’s oldest time and they’re doing it
To Trump as we speak so just to not to believe the point but for those who don’t remember um this is part of the answer to the question why were you so attacked and so hated because you didn’t bow at all so you were dragged before Congress
To cow toow um but you didn’t instead you did this well he has been called the most hated man America in America and his latest actions will likely do nothing to change that reputation forced to appear before a congressional committee on drug pricing former pharmaceutical CEO Martin scy refused to
Answer any questions repeatedly invoking his Fifth Amendment rights here’s part of a report from NBC’s Anne Thompson appearing to smirk are you listening and often inattentive yes former Turing pharmaceutical CEO Martin scarelli lived up to his bad boy reputation appearing before Congress I intend to uh use the advice of my
Council not yours posing for pictures instead of list listening it’s not funny Mr selli people are dying and they’re getting sicker and sicker srly declined to answer why the company he once LED raised the price of a life-saving drug 5,000% so just so you know when a corrupt like Elijah Cummings
Speaks to you surf he’s speaking not as your peer but as the feudal Lord and you have to pay attention or at least pretend to pay attention you didn’t of course you know when you when you try to challenge authority and you know that Authority expects your your subservience
It’s it’s a really huge insult because you know if Congress doesn’t have power then who does and it’s really dangerous to sort of like cross that line and I was willing to cross it for a few reasons the first was um I was a huge fan of the Chappelle show and Chappelle
Had a skit of what if black people were treated like white people and he was a drug dealer and in the skit and he goes down to Congress and um you know Congress is asking him questions and he’s reading this like very defiant it’s hilarious skit and I said this is my one
Chance in life to be able to reenact this skit and my lawyers felt the same way they they remembered the The Godfather scene I think it’s Godfather 2 where lawyers come down and you know um to Congress and they tried to defend Michael cor Corleone and so my lawyers
Were we were all interested in this as an entertainment thing more than anything else like we we already told Congress we’re not going to answer any questions and in fact in congress’s own handbook it is defined as unethical to make a witness come to Congress to only
Invoke the fifth in fact you’re not supposed to bring somebody to do that but they bent the rules in this case because it’s a great you know media stun but when they say are you listening and you basically said well you said yes but what you meant clearly was no I mean
They kind of have to hurt you after you do that don’t they yeah and and I felt like you know at that point they already been arrested so what more can they do you know and I felt like send you to prison for seven years sure sure um you
Know I think that’s a that’s a foregone conclusion right I mean at some point you know with when you have a 99.5% conviction rate you know the idea of the burden is on the state to prove the charges what burden you know the burden’s on the defendant and when you
Have the media indicting you every day and a media that will refuse to sort of say well here’s why he thinks he’s innocent and one of my greatest triumphs that sounds very strange is actually being found not guilty of five out of eight charges because it’s almost
Impossible let me just ask you I want to T I want to tie up the DPR controversy before we move on um so this is drug whose price you raised by a lot lot at least on a percentage basis thousands of percent what’s the price of it now well
It’s generic now so it’s it’s uh it cost pennies to get now so you know the price went up for a short period of time before generics entered the market and the free market kind of if you believe there was a problem which I don’t the free market fixed the problem lots of
Medicines are much more expensive than der and I think that’s you asked about misunderstandings earlier that’s one of the biggest misunderstandings is that people said well if you raise something 5,000% isn’t it unaffordable now and the answer is of course not depends on the the beginning price you know if
Something’s one cent and you raise it up 50 50x you know it’s still affordable depending on what the product is and so there are drugs in in the the drug system that are millions of dollars and what folks don’t understand is for rare diseases uh we talked about cystic
Fibrosis uh muscular distrophy there are not many people with these diseases and in fact cystic fibrosis makes toxoplasmosis which is the derim disease seem extremely common you know plasmosis is exquisitely rare so you cannot afford to keep a company in business making der Prim unless you raise the price
Interesting and and this is conventional across all drug manufacturers well what’s really funny is um I had a friend named Brent Saunders who ran Allergan and he um he was an investor in my fund he was kind of the big shot in Pharma and he had Botox and you know as his
Flagship product and he raised the price of Botox like 9.9% every year just to avoid a double digit distin and the price increase on botox cost the healthare system hundreds of millions of dollars the price and and the same thing at at AB ABY for humra or Johnson and
Johnson or fiser Merc their price increases while they’re smaller on a percentage basis they cost the Healthcare System billions of dollars and nobody talks about them I had to raise the price of a minuscule tiny medicine that nobody takes and nobody mentioned that in the media but to keep
That medicine on the shelves because I’ve done this before where a medicine that sells very little less than a million dollars a couple million dollars the big farmer guys don’t want to make that medicine they want to get rid of it and the only way that that medicine can
Stay reliably on the shelves is if it merits making what’s interesting is it um so you were not a big Pharma company Hillary Clinton is a slave to the big Pharma companies obviously their obedient servant um all the all the Democrats in Congress many Republicans
Are also it seemed to me as an outsider they went after you because you weren’t fizer they get away with it yeah I mean I started two drug companies in my own hands one became a billion dollar company uh I was 28 when I started that
Company um in Pharma is you know kind of one of the more successful entrepreneurs and the what a lot of people don’t know is we’ve invented a lot of medicines we uh got a drug FDA approved which is through the gauntlet from phase one all
The way to phase three very hard to do um we were one of the first uh companies to pursue internasal Academy and for suicidality and depression we made about 20 30 different drug projects in fact aprim was one of the least significant things we ever did and it became this
Like really big magnifying glass on on quote unquote corporate greed to this day I never made a dollar from der really so what one thing I didn’t know about you until we had dinner last night was that you worked well you were in high school at Hunter College High
School probably the top public high school in New York City you worked for Jim Kramer yeah Jim was uh later of CNBC Fame yeah yeah he was a great hedge fund manager and you know a lot of people knock him for seemingly getting every stock pick wrong these days but you know
When he ran r a actual hedge fund for for wealthy clients um he was extremely good at it and we overlap for only about 9 months but when you became the most reviled human being in human history did he call you he didn’t and I I think he
He said something really press and and smart on cmbc because Jim is brilliant guy you know a lot of people knock him um yeah I’m one of them but but people don’t understand just just how quite frankly how brilliant he is and he doesn’t make it easy for folks no what
He said on CNBC is this the same thing he said this guy isn’t making it easy to root for him yeah and um he’s right you know and part of the reason he was right is you know I was sort of enjoying like you know if you’re if you’re a cat
Playing with a mouse or something like that in this case I think both of us thought we were cats playing with mice me and the media and the media and me I sort of felt like why take this seriously you know why if they’re not
Going to engage on my terms why not just flip everybody off call them names disregard them you know look at Congress right why does Congress deserve respect you saw that clip a second ago where she 33 trillion in debt you did this for you yeah exactly the MSNBC lady
Said well this won’t help his reputation wait wait a second Congress is more hated than I am yes you know so a lot of people messaged me sent me letters I got over 5,000 letters in jail 1% or less were hate mail 99% were way to go Stick
It to the Man screw Congress and I’m the most hated man but that’s wishful thinking you know I walk around in New York people hug me they get they take they there’s no hate you know that’s a liberal wishful thinking to project on who they want they’re the most hated
Right it’s interesting so um the FBI shows up December 2015 you’ve been the subject of all these news reports uh about your immoral Behavior what did you think the FBI was doing at your apartment well you know I I had a fund from like three or four companies ago
And um in in the hedge fund business it’s it’s to be frank it’s it’s it’s kind of an awful business um and it’s a business that almost like I think half of all top hedge funds have basically been closed down for legal reasons uh many hedge managers have gone to prison
It’s it’s a dangerous job um because you are the symbolism of wealth like you are literally not making any product you are taking information and Manpower and converting some pile of money into a bigger pile of money and it’s really if there’s anything in life that symbolizes
Greed and excess and I don’t necessarily believe this but from the outside persp perspective hedge funds are it and so it’s not hard to sort of point a finger at hedge funds say there’s some fraud here or there’s some some transaction that I didn’t like that that wasn’t
Disclosed properly and this is why hedge funds are like half compliance departments these days yeah but um they don’t even care about the return anymore they care about the uh the compliance because it’s such a dangerous business so they found some some irregularities in my old hedge funds none of my
Investors ever lost dime in fact they made quite a bit in fact one one of my investors said he made about 30 40% a year investing in my hedge fund it was the second best hedge fund he ever invested in his life life and he’d been
A hedge fund investor for 20 years and he invested with Soros and some of the best hedge funds ever and um you know I still went through the ringer and wait I’m kid so you were um charged with Securities fraud yes who did you defraud I defrauded the investors that that made
The 30 40% a year but I’m conf mean how can you defraud someone who makes 30 or 40% a year so it’s funny there you can be a victim of a crime without necessarily uh losing anything and while the the government normally never pursues a case like that they pursue cases where
Somebody opens their pockets and says look this I gave this guy a million buckson the million bucks is gone and this guy’s got a Lamborghini and I have a hole of a million dollars what the hell and you know that’s you know I think why I was relatively spared on a
Sentence even though I thought it was excessive um I feel like you know the government normally never brings a case like that and the southern district is is kind of known as the fraud sort of Center you know they they’re pursuing s bank MC Freed at the moment um they hop
On these cases they love these cases the Easter District isn’t really you know the place to do that um they mostly deal with Visa cases gun cases drug cases um things like that mob fraud so that’s Brooklyn Queens Long Island yeah that’s right not Manhattan yep it was lorett
Lynch’s division it’s it’s a fairly political division and you know the person that prosecuted me is now a partner at a law firm and making you know a lot more money than he made before so did you sense from the beginning that the your prosecution was
Political yeah no I mean I I know was you know it and when you say political it’s not a left or right thing necessarily it’s um it’s actually more of a status thing every player in this Symphony of of grift has a different role to play and you know uh the
Prosecutor’s role is looking out for himself you know he’s not interested in the community of of New York City being you know better or worse than it was yesterday you know he’s he’s a lawyer from a top law school he’s trying to make millions of dollars and Prosecuting
Martin SC is great way to do that if it happens to make his bosses happy great but politics has nothing to do with with with his decision you know his decision is about how do I make more money so they see so someone sees you on TV and
You’re at the middle of the 15minute hate ritual and they’re like let’s look into that guy’s hedge funds yeah and I think I think that’s that’s part for the course you know I think that if you are a bad guy um in the newspaper that that for
Whatever reason AGS or the Department of Justice says the people want to see this guy go down and we’ve got a whole big book of laws that we can apply he’s got to violate one of these things but bottom line just to be totally clear on
This guess we could look it up if we wanted nobody lost money in this fraud that you committed correct highly unusual never heard of a fraud like that it it it happens very very rarely um like one out of a thousand or one out of 5,000 and look truth be told I
Understand it if I said Tucker give me a million bucks I’m going to invest it cuz I’m a biotech genius and I went out to the the casino and I said you know let me throw it all in red and see what happens and if I lost it all and I went
Back to you and said Tucker sorry we lost our biotech Investments didn’t work it’s still fraud but if I doubled the money and gave it back to you and said my biotech Investments are great it’s still fraud and I think it’s wrong but
In my case I mean I did what I was you know what I told people I would do and you know there was there was not anything there that I mean the whole hedge fund community who has looked into this thinks this thing stinks to high
Heaven and U what did you think you were going to get I thought I’d get a light sentence because there were no damages and damages are the centerpiece of how you get sentenced there’s actually a rule book and it’s a point system it’s kind of absurd you get seven points off
The bat for conviction but seven points is almost no time in prison which is great so I all right I’ll give me the seven points but then on a sliding scale there’s a dollar amount that gives you more and more points so so Sam bankman for example his fraud amount is $10
Billion they don’t have a section for that it’s like you know off the charts mine was you know something like seven or 8 million and there is a section for that and it gets you to about 40 years in prison and U 40 years sure and uh my
Calculation was 300 months or something like that plus and um you know the judges paired that down to sort of say okay that’s probably not what he deserves but they would have been well within the right to do so and I’m very lucky that you think the prosecutor
Would have put you away for 40 years sure they asked for at least 12 and they would have been just as happy what do they care you know because it’s a man’s life I don’t know I think they should have uh there’s a term that they use called prosecutorial discretion and they
Said the the weight of the government is so heavy and that burden of proof that we we learn in school that oh it’s the government’s burden it’s not a burden you know it’s it’s it’s a very easy thing to prosecute somebody it’s 99.5% conviction so for them to put their
Finger on the scale and say you’re done and you’re removed from society it’s it’s very easy I happen to draw the best judge in that uh courtroom and it was like a a just a blessing a lucky draw of a judge that happened to be very sympathetic and known for short
Sentences so you’re from a workingclass immigrant family um you got three siblings two parents close family sounds like what did they think of all this my parents defended me um they sort of um cautioned me to be less loud and less defiant is that the first time they
Cautioned you that probably not um but you know my parents are from a communist country and they fled America to I’m sorry they fled Albania to come to America and and make it in the big city and I sort of said well you know I’m I’m
Not going to sort of like bow down to the government because it’s that’s that’s not kind of why we why why we came here and I think that you know again what you get taught in school is that you’re free to do and say as you wish and the government can’t meddle in
Your life if they feel like it and you know I learned I learned differently and I think again you know I’m not the first one and I think the doj’s prosecution of former president um is just lays be the kind of fraud that the doj is which is
Basically you know will will prosecute anyone for anything yeah and it doesn’t make a difference whether you’re guilty or not because it’s a foregone conclusion um that you are guilty um and in fact our conviction rates are higher than other like banana republics you have a better chance of being acquitted
In Russia than you do in America and it’s it’s uh we have 10% of our country has been to jail 1% is presently incarcerated um 1% of the entire population of the US yeah right now in jail right now it’s it’s a Nutty thing and you never think
It’ll happen to you but as you start to look around what what the prison population is Shifting towards is more political crime more white collor crime more things that aren’t really crimes but for example Des duza less rapists more Securities politically Motivated Security whatever whatever it takes to sort of you
Know shift society and mold Society into into the way that you know folks want it to be molded to do you really think that’s happening I think it’s sad but true I mean it’s uh the president is is the best example I mean you have four separate indictments Tucker I met a lot
Of bad people in prison Mobsters drug dealers kingpins there is nobody I met that got four separate indictments from four separate divisions of the government he that is like an all-time bestselling record like Al Capone you know John G can’t compete with that President Trump is the biggest criminal according to the
Government that ever existed it’s it’s uh so absurd um John Gotti spent his life running my City New York City into the ground as the biggest criminal The Godfather of the gabino crime family he got indicted four times guess what it took him 50 years to accumulate that for
Indictments Trump did Trump didn’t he didn’t try and build a border wall or criticize Nat did he that’s true that’s true fair fair okay I’m just trying to keep the crimes in perspective um so when you find out that you you’ve been sentenced to 7 years in prison and
You’re a pretty young man at this point what do you think well you know I take it a step uh a few months before that where I was on bail and happy gol lucky I was I was actually uh getting into the software business at the time and I
Figured you know you’re on you’re on bail and getting into the software business yeah I just I I was I was you know I was starting up a small effort to to look into I need to do something and um you know I was um expecting to go to
Prison but I didn’t expect to go for 4 years and I made a joke on social media about Hillary Clinton and all of a sudden I find myself in front of a judge and they’re throwing me in prison and um yeah I I uh I said something stupid sned
It was a joke you know as a comedian not all your jokes land and I I actually one of the reasons I have a social media following is I think some people find my stuff funny and um you know I try to poke fun at power and authority and you
Know all kinds of people who need to be taken down a Peg and I you know I try to do that and um you know this joke fell flat it was some silly joke about uh Hillary Clinton’s DNA and it got taken the wrong way by actually a New Yorker
Reporter kind of flagged it who um this guy named ali uh he sort of flagged it basically took it to the government and said look at look at this arrest him and they did they a New Yorker reporter didn’t they’re such monsters yeah they they said this is a threat to Hillary
Clinton I’m not threatening anybody it was about um if I can get a sample of her hair I can determin through DNA analysis one of my expertises that she may or may not be a lizard person which is a completely you know it’s a joke obviously you know she’s a human being
Uh but you know there’s some debate that but I mean but it was a joke it’s clear it was a joke I don’t want Hillary Clinton’s hair I’m not going to do a DNA analysis no you don’t want her hair no you don’t it’s all a joke and you know
They said this is a serious threat to her safety the New Yorker reporter said this and the government took it and ran with it the judge said you know what you’re right who would find this funny and my lawyer sort of sitting there saying about half of America thinks this
Shit’s funny and uh this you know very liberal judge from Berkeley great great judge by the way um but she said you know this is a Bonafide threat to her safety your bail is done get out of here and you got sent to prison for I guess
You’re not the first I mean we just interviewed someone else who’s about to be sent to prison for the same but I guess you can’t make fun of Hillary Clinton there are limits to the First Amendment there are very strong limits and and I think that that’s another
Thing I learned is that the first amendment is this very qualified right I mean it’s extremely qualified and uh I had to learn that the hard way and I became a you know constitutional law scholar trying to understand why I can’t make a joke and um you know it’s
Frustrating I think that you know making a joke about Trump would not have reached the radar of the Govern you think I mean I just would have not been you know that interesting wow so you went back to jail for how long that’s the so so basically
From there I had to stay until my sentence my sentence was how long were you in jail before trial um I no I was already uh convicted so it was waiting sentencing and when it came time for sentencing you know I don’t think that helped that you know she had
To throw me in for for this joke you know and it it probably you know my lawyer says it cost you at least another year or two um because you know it’s not a great thing did you ever reach out to the New Yorker reporter and say hey
Thanks for throwing me in prison for a joke it’s interesting that person became uh who does like a lot of takedowns um that was their stick you know is that they write these big takedown pieces of this person’s awful well I feel bad for that person actually I’m a Catholic and
I look at that person and say this is a sad existence and that person actually ended up over the years becoming depressed and suicidal and said I I don’t want to live like this tearing people down for a living you know and really yeah it was fascinating to see my
My girlfriend who was the reporter who covered my case sent me me in documents that this guy was literally on Twitter saying I’m I’m suicidal I want to take my own life and I look back and I said those things aren’t an accident I mean if you spend your life digging up dirt
On people trying to ruin their lives and you know it must be a miserable existence that’s wow what a wonderful take on that because I think you’re absolutely right but you can see past your own bitterness to you have to be able to turn the other cheek I mean I I
Don’t even blame the government to be honest I mean it’s it’s something where you know I’ve had a great life um I’m halfway done and uh I’m going to keep doing great things and you know no if nobody can get you down I mean for me it’s um the Hallmark of a good
Entrepreneur is is persistence and perseverance four and a half years in prison okay so what was I mean that would be enough to get most people down in fact to drive them into I had a friend kill himself before he was a hedg fun guy um in the same field as me and
He Insider traded and he got arrested on Monday he killed himself on Tuesday and it’s it’s not easy um but if you’re a real entrepreneur jail is nothing you know you the ups and Downs of your own company you know surviving and and fighting and a customer wants to pull
Out or there’s going to be a hitpiece on you in Bloomberg or JN is leaving to go to a competitor this stuff will make your stomach turn and jail is like a break from reality you know it’s it’s a it’s a four years where you’re just on
The bench you know you’re you’re in the Penalty Box and were you afraid going in you know I of course didn’t know what was going to happen but I talked to enough people who said you know it it’s the kind of place where if you want to
Fight you’ll find a fight and if you want to be cool you’ll be cool and I think the number one thing you don’t want to be in prison is I learned this you know on the spot is you don’t want to be an informant and you don’t want to
Be a child sex offender those are the two you know big kind of red flags and most of the negative attention kind of goes to those two people as somebody who went to trial which almost nobody does because it’s a forun conclusion what the verdict is you’re guilty I mean there’s
No there’s there’s nobody that’s found innocent and again my pride for the five charges I was founded not guilty of means that the US government made a huge flagrant error that they accuse me of five crimes that I didn’t do and a jury and my peers determined that that was
True and that I I take a huge amount of pride in that but anyway um you know jail is is not nearly as a violent place as you might imagine uh people just want to go home it’s warehouses of human beings that you know by far and large
You know probably have gotten overs sentenced uh for what they’ve done you know I’m not saying that prison shouldn’t exist it should it’s necessary but you know it’s fairly inhumane you know in my opinion and and the idea that all these white collar folks should get
20 years or 30 years or 40 years I think it’s wrong you know I I uh I did it with a you know with a smile on my face um but it was it’s not something that I think’s really great or fair for a lot
Of folks the whole time you had a smile on your face oh there were you know not every second was was great um but it was uh in federal prison no but you have to you have to like I said I mean uh growing up in in in a bad neighborhood
In New York um fighting for relevance and success in in on Wall Street starting the company having all the successes and setbacks of that it impes a comparison I mean jail is you know you’re sitting around and reading you know it’s not something where how much did you read I’ve read
Hundreds of books in prison yeah it was uh it was honestly you know there’s there’s a a Twilight U uh the old show The Twilight Zone The Twilight Zone there’s a a skit called um time enough forever or something like that and the guy goes down to the basement in the
Library and and when he comes up there’s a nuclear bomb and every The Whole World’s dead but him he was the only guy in a fallout shelter and he’s in a library and he says this is the greatest thing ever because I can read for the
Rest of my life and no one will ever bother me and that’s heaven to him you know and so I think that there’s a paradox of if you took your cell phone away and said you can’t have that and then you took you know all the other
Kind of BS that you have to do all day whether it’s meetings or or you know should we go to this restaurant or that restaurant or can I get an Uber or this that you have none of that you wipe your slate clean and here’s just a stack of
Books it’s actually awesome you know there are bad parts of prison you know it’s it’s not fun being there but if you just kind of zoom in on that there’s a real big self aligning there what are the people like the people are not great
Um you know it’s uh it’s but you can find humanity in anybody and I think that’s one of the big lessons for me from prison is you know Sam bankman is going to prison most likely uh for a long time Sam’s from an upper class you know family in California he’s never
Been around uh you know minorities let alone um you know inner city minorities who have a very different way of life and when he asked me for advice about this I said I think you should learn rap music I think you should learn slang I think you should invent a backstory for yourself
Where you’re not Sam bankman the businessman but you were Sam bankman from Oakland and wait so he asked you your advice on Prison something like that yeah and I you know one of the questions was is there internet in prison I said no Sam there’s there’s no
Internet in prison you know you have if you can smuggle a cell phone in through somebody’s butt or something maybe you can you know find a way to get you know some cell phone reception but no there’s no internet kiosk where you can go play video games it’s it’s a rough place and
You know I think one of the reasons I was successful in person I have many friends from there is that I understand you know I grew up in Brooklyn Melting Pot I understand minorities and I you know we had a lot in common and and commonality is humanity and you know all
Of the trials and tribulations they would face with their families I’d face with mine that commonality existed no they didn’t go to college most of the time no we had different levels of education but there were a lot of smart people there there were a lot of yeah
Sure I mean you know the circumstances of that that people can fall into making a left turn or right turn in life you know you can make mistakes and I think that there are a number of people who who have who’ve been very successful Michael milin you know uh obviously
People like uh you know uh Charles Kushner you know there are folks who have gone to prison and made a mistake in life and the young men mostly who get locked up who are mostly Black Or Hispanic um it is sad thing to see and I
Don’t know what the solution is but I do see that you know a good 10 20% of them are really good eggs that kind of just you know are sorry for what they did they felt like they had no choice maybe that’s right maybe that’s wrong but you
Know they’re people that probably do deserve a second chance and unfortunately Society you know every time I read a story about me it’s convicted felon Martin scy yeah and I’m saying why don’t you say US Patent owner Martin scy or billion-dollar you know company starter Martin scy like where’s
That why is it convicted felon and again I’m reading the media so we know why were there still mob guys in prison when you were there yeah in fact I I one of my um uh roommates early on was an 80-year-old mob boss and he was a huge fan of
Yours I’m flattered and um you know he um he was uh an interesting hell um but yeah the the mob but he was literally like a Mafia Boss in his 80s it like out of a movie yeah totally did you make spaghetti sauce together believe it or
Not yes did you really yeah how was it uh the one of the like finest things you could get is like we would somehow pay a guy to pay a guy to get spaghetti in and then we’ pay a guy to pay a guy to get
The sauce in and we’d kind of like have a lookout to make sure that the the police you know the guards didn’t see what we were doing now some of the guards saw but they they were kind of they they kind of like the mob guys so
They were like yeah you guys are you guys are all right because they felt like they were in you know a movie or something like that so it was fun and like I said there there were people one of the things is when you’re faced with four years of time everybody’s bored so
We’re trying to make something interesting and exciting so we’re telling War Stories we’re playing cards we’re playing chess we’re doing whatever we can to pass the time and everyone says oh you lost four years of life no I didn’t I experienced four fascinating years of life and I learned more than I
Have like I said I read about four or 500 books in prison I’ve read one book since I left prison one and I think you know the friends that I have that read a lot uh I know a friend of mine that that reads and writes a review of every book
He reads he’s on 23 for this year the year’s almost over um you know and he’s a voracious reader you know most people don’t have the time these days to read an entire book from start to finish and um you know the the joy of being able to
Do that is something that I really you know when I was younger I did a lot of and I realized in the business world you got meeting to meeting to meeting before you know it there’s where’s bed doing texts yeah yeah you’re working all the
Time and and where do you have the time to read a book and God forbid you read a fiction you know you know that’s a waste of time you might read a business book to somehow get ahead in business but to read a a fiction book or a history book
Or something like that that’s really you know good stuff there’s no time in that for modern society I mean we we look at Tik Tok for 3 seconds and the company’s monetizing and studying how can we get him to four you know so the idea of you
Reading a book for like just sitting there you know on in a lazy chair reading a book for hours and hours it doesn’t compute with with modern reality how’ you keep the self-pity at Bay oh boy um you know I looked around at at at at guys who dropped out of
College or dropped out of uh high school or sometimes middle school and were given a gun and said you know go sell drugs and I said you know am I am I like one of these guys does this make sense to me and I think that humility helped a
Lot you know to say well you know we all kind of have this common denominator of you know we pissed somebody off and we’re in here and we did something wrong and we’re in here and of course I felt like I didn’t do anything wrong I pleed
Not guilty I went to trial I fought and fought fought I peeled and peeled to peeled and I still believe you know I’m not guilty but you know I kind of just realized that again some people get hit by cars some people die of rare diseases
You know I I I met some of the worst uh sickest people in the world in Pharma and tried to make medicine for them and raising prices on drugs is one way to afford the ability to do that you know a lot of people said why don’t you just go
To Wall Street I said well I know about a lot about that and it’s not that easy uh you know there’s another set of Masters you have to kiss the ring to if you want to do that and um you know it’s it’s a lot of that’s about what school
Did you go to and you know all the check boxes that you have to check and I didn’t check a lot of those boxes so I needed to do it the old fashioned way which is revenue and profits you know which is a good way to run a business
Yeah and uh the other guys get to raise money at any valuation any amount of money and that’s sort of a lottery ticket you know I didn’t want my company to be a lottery ticket I wanted to be a substantive company that had products costs and and earnings so anyway um I
Think you know I’m very lucky you know I I think a lot of people you know have this wo is me attitude at every wrong thing that happens to them and I think that life’s tough you know you you got to fight and and it’s really just an
Attitude that I’ve had since I was a little kid that you know there’s if you’re going to be crybaby about every little bad thing that happens to you then you know you’re going to be a miserable person and if you take the Silver Lining every time you’re going to
End up being actually a terribly happy person I think one of the things the media hated the most about me and and the government is they couldn’t get me down no matter what they could do throw at me it was okay you know life goes on
You know I’ll turn the page you know and I think that that bravery and that courage is something that again turned out to be a blessing that you know coming out of prison I was inundated with with um messages and emails from from some of the biggest business people
In the country saying you know we we by you we support you for for you know being the one of the few guys to not cave at in in the face of all that adversity amazing what’s it like getting out of prison it’s not just one day you
Get dropped off at the bus terminal correct yeah it’s it’s it’s a little surreal it’s hard to explain it’s it’s like this Continuum of of incarceration it doesn’t end um so what’s ironic about these four and a half years is they start well before and they end well
After so it’s it’s this really long-term period some people have 10 years of probation or more and uh some people have lifetime probation so it can be this like semi- incarcerated state where you really can’t do very much and um you know for example you lose your right to
A firearm you lose your right to you know uh to vote you lose your right to all these things and if you do get incarcerated again the the way the system is set up is you’re going away for a long time you know you you kind of there’s this criminal history concept
And the point system I mentioned it kind of two x’s if you go again for a second time and if you go for a third time they call you a career criminal and you know again by by Trump standards he’s literally a career criminal at this
Point you know it’s it’s a it’s a really insane kind of concept but it is the way the system works how was Trump scen in prison I think he’d be liked uh if he went uh one of my uh top defense attorneys thinks he’s going um I think
He he will be remanded uh in other words have his bail revoked I think that he’s liked in prison quite a bit um a lot of folks in prison for example especially the the old-timers who have been there forever he passed something called the first First Step act which I think is is
A brilliant piece of legislation and it was mostly I think shephered by kushers who who pushed it very hard because their father went to prison and what the First Act does is it basically lets you lessen lessen your SS if you go through this rehabilitative process and I I did
Some of those programs and I have to say that you know they actually are useful they kind of help reorient your goals and meaning in life and they really make you confront like well why am I trying to just grow this stack of money to the
Ceiling when and what about my kids what about you know what do I really makes me happy and this program is fantastic and it could cut your sentence by a third and guess who didn’t want this to happen virtually everyone in Congress you said
You know this is a bad idea and he got it passed by the skin of his teeth so when people talk politics like what percent I’m just interested of the guys you served with where were they on the Spectrum like mostly mostly right and I think they were mostly right yeah they
Were Mo mostly apolitical before Trump showed up and I think you you’d hear some jokes like well Trump’s a lot like me you know he’s a gangster and uh he does what he wants says what he wants and that’s what I do and you know that’s like an unhealthy kind of attitude
Obviously but um a lot of guys sort of said that’s my role model you know he does what he wants say he doesn’t care about the rules he throws caution of the wind he’s he’s that guy that I I respect that’s what I am in my dilapidated
Neighborhood so you know he’s that for for America and that’s you know again that I don’t agree with that I think that’s that’s awful but I also think that they saw what the average American I think sees which is a guy that obviously is is an outsider of
Politics say the least you know I would say that he tells it like it is but we know that he doesn’t always tell like it is yeah he does lie sometimes um but I think that he’s you know more or less loved in prison uh because of that mix
Of like he’s got this like almost criminality to him where he flouts the law and according to the doj he’s flouted the law but to a lot of people they interpret that as that’s not criminality that’s just a guy that has conviction that does what he wants and
Kind of lets the aftermath kind of he’s Brave yeah and and I think that’s what is appreciated that he’s also not a double talker that kind of will spin you you know he wears his incoherence on his sleeve you know that he’s just sort of like you know direct and you know he’ll
He’ll fib and he’ll do things like that but you kind of know what you’re going to get from him he’s kind of consistent and I think that people like that Obama remember a good chunk of the prison population is black somewhere between a third and a half um when I asked guys
About this they said Obama didn’t do anything for us you know this supposed to be our black president and you know we’re we’re over represented this community by they got nothing in common with Obama no no um so you mentioned you talked to Sam bankman freed about prison
Can you I I don’t want to let that go let’s back up how do you know Sam bankman fre you know he’s a young entrepreneur um who romanced the clintons RO Rance the world he was friends with Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton he U was a big donor of
Democrats and he was also a guy at a very young age who had a very big company and I know what that’s like and he had a much bigger company 10 times bigger than mine but not a thousand times bigger you know we’re in the same
Universe and uh you know he was just kicking butt you know he was on the cover of Forbes and was all lie and um he actually didn’t succeed at all uh which is ironic um but he represented this group called effective altruism uh which has sort of took Silicon Valley by
Storm and me and a few other people uh created a counter group called uh effective accelerationism where we kind of said we’re the diametrical opposite of you guys and and you guys are going to ruin our country uh if you keep sort of talking about what you’re talking
About and EA effective altruism has basically died with with Sam um you know he was laid bear as a fraud and I think that whole movement has been laid bear as a fraud there’s no question and it doesn’t entail actually helping anyone around you no no and you don’t have to
Tip at dinner or pay your housekeeper a bonus right what’s really funny about effective altruism is that it’s a movement for people who can afford to be altruists you know it’s only only counts if you’re billion the most selfish people in the world seem to love it I
Have noticed um so but you know him because you disagreed on that no uh you know I started to you know get to know him when his company was succeeding and then I really started to get to know him when when he got in trouble and um you
Know I think that you know it’s just a sort of sorry situation I I kind of went through it too where you just can’t believe that this has happened to you and you’re in denial that they’re going to win you know there’s nothing you can
Do about it and this is a guy who’s gone to every math competition every MIT you know thing and he’s been told he’s special his whole life and he’s in this spiders web of the doj indictment where it doesn’t matter how smart you are you cannot think your way out of this you’re
Going to jail and you know the one or two cases where you somehow were acquitted was a huge mistake for the doj and they went back and studied how that won’t happen again you know it’s it’s a system designed to incarcerate you and he’s been defiant he went on a speaking
Tour he went on all this stuff they had to lock him down to his house uh on house arrest because he was talking too much and they finally said enough we we’re tossing an end and it’s hard enough to be indicted it’s hard harder to fight it from inside a jail cell it’s
Basically impossible but why can I I always wonder this and I’ve asked friends of mine who are going to prison this question I never get a good answer you think you’re being unfairly treated most people being prosecuted think they’re being unfairly treated some are some aren’t but they all think they are
And you think you could spend the rest of your life in prison he definitely could spend the rest why don’t you flee it’s a funny it’s a funny question no one F no one flees um there was a guy who fled and he actually fled successfully and he came back my lawyer
Was his lawyer and he came back and he said look you know the thing you were charged for is an illegal anymore can my guy come back to the US and Jud said absolutely not if he comes back here he’s got to do another three or four
Years and they made an agreement to do that but it’s it’s hard if you’re send bankman with with his face to sort of flee and find a place to to flee and you know they tend to find you um the government of the US stretches to almost
Every other country in the world you know they have uh uh you know agreements to send you back exite you uh only three countries don’t have those agreements so you better be ready to be Edward Snowden you know in essence um if you want to
Sort of you know have a way to um to flee and and survive and you know it’s just one of these things where you know as soon as there’s a warrant or something like that they they they pay pretty close attention to you um fleeing
You know is also kind of uh I think to a lot of folks a bit of a cowardly kind of way out you know I think that that arrogance that comes with you know success in life bleeds over to the system I can beat this I can find a way
To get out of this and there is no way out of it and I think he’s learning that the hard way right now so so just to just to wrap up on this you think there is no way out of it for Sam bankman freed there’s no way out of it for
Anyone you know it’s the justice system is a joke it’s it’s it’s a performative act it is no different from a show trial in in communist China find me one case where somebody’s been acquitted at at federal court it is it is the outlier of outliers you know it is there’s
Thousands of these indictments every year tens of thousands and there’s no there’s no quitt you might get acquitted on a charge as I did you know or many of them but they throw enough spaghetti at why does nobody say this I mean you there are very few trials as you point
Out most people just plead out but when there is a trial the media acts as if it’s like a cliffhanger it’s really funny uh because you know it’s foregone conclusion um and I think that there’s a mix of things that make these trials unfair you know one of them is this
Putative burden on the on the government which doesn’t exist um so they get to go first and if you know anything about like behavioral economics or Daniel Conan if you you have to sit through five weeks of why this guy’s a bad guy and after five weeks he gets to speak
His peace it’s really unfair because the anchoring principle of I’ve just heard this this guy back when did you stop beating your wife yeah yeah it’s just you know they’ve already framed it it’s a framing problem and and it’s just impossible to beat that um one of Sam’s
Jurors was was sleeping which is the death death nail you know if a juror starts to go to sleep he’s made up his mind you’re going to jail and it’s so hard to beat the government at trial that it’s it’s it’s virtually impossible again you have better odds than other
Countries which you know you wouldn’t expect um so I think Sam’s you know you know he’s he’s in it pretty deep and you know it’s a lot of people think he should you know go to jail for life or something like that and I I think he’s
Not as maybe as culpable as as as some people think but he’s certainly culpable and you know I think there there’s a fair sentence for him I you know I can’t say exactly what it is but you know he he’s going to get something what are you
Going to do next so I have a software company and and again I just brush all this off you know I think that you know I’m very lucky that you know unlike Sam you know I’ve actually built things successfully and I’ve had I’ve had a
Track record this is a black eye to say the least but it’s it’s also something I can move on from you know I meet with investors um every day and to the extent they don’t necessarily like our company it’s not because of this it’s because of
Oh we you know your product doesn’t make sense to us or something like like that I never hear well we’re not gonna invest in a felon you know I I don’t hear that which is which is awesome um so I think again I’m blessed to have
A second chance and I think that’s the power of of kind of like the way media works now is that if this was 20 years ago I’d have no chance you know I’d be a librarian or something at best and I’d probably have to go from library to
Library you know once they found an itinerant librarian once they found out kind once they found out I was who I was you know they they be you gota gotta get out of here you can can’t be here um you know so i’ maybe be popping gas
Somewhere and and and I think thanks to social media you can actually say speak your mind so what I did is I started live streaming and I said you know if you think I’m a bad guy see how I live my life and I I started teaching chemistry and Finance
On YouTube and and folks watched it and they said this guy isn’t bad guy you know he’s he’s a normal guy and uh being able to show who you are to the world is one of the small Gifts of this new technological age there’s a lot of
Drawbacks too but that’s one of the small gifts is that you can set the story straight and NBC is not setting the story for you in the old days You’ go on TV and say hi Mom because it was like this one opportunity to say I’m on
TV isn’t this amazing and now if every there is no TV show you can pay me to go on you know because it’s it’s it’s uh irant I tried that it’s irrelevant they they typ cast you however they want they’re you’re their product why would I let you make advertising Revenue off of
Me am I getting a cut of this what it’s sort of an absurd concept that you’re going to interview me for free and then you’re going to go sell Toyota a bunch of ads you know and I’m fodder for your business and not only that but whatever I’m going
To say you’re going to twist so that Toyota pays you the most amount of money to sell those ads and it’s kind of an absurdity and the past is you know we viewed this as something that was attractive because it was the only way for millions of people to know who you
Are this is my last question but you’re still off Twitter off X um distressingly hope that’ll change how did she get booted off Twitter in the first place it’s an irony that twist that ties together a lot of um commonalities here so I got into a big fight with Lauren
Dua I actually thought she was what’s Lauren Dua Lauren Dua is a person who was a Teen Vogue um writer okay and she actually appeared on one of your shows okay and she rocketed to fame um because of that okay and um I was needling her a
Bit and she was needling me in fact she used my name first and I said oh what do you do you know you’re just a Teen Vogue reporter and you know we just kept going back and forth and I I actually kind of thought that she was sort of enjoying
This raising her profile raising my profile it was this kind of like thing that happens media that wasn’t so bad and one day you know I I I guess I took it too far and she complained and I was banned off Twitter what did she say I
Made a u a valentine of her I took a photo of her and her husband and I cheekily kind of Photoshopped my face on on his face and you know I was I I invited her to the inauguration I said well won’t you be my date and you know
She was you know Trump’s biggest enemy or you know one of many uh sort of left-wing people that hated Trump so she found the whole idea very disgusting and she said how is this allowed it’s Photoshop it’s not it’s not that big a deal what what allowed inviting her to
The inauguration yeah yeah it was like seen to her as as this deep harassment and so she called for your censorship she called for my censorship I’ve been permanently banned ever since I’ve tried to make burner accounts that live anywhere from a day to a couple months
And then they get banned again and um it’s tough because free speech is important and the reason this is extremely funny is she got a letter from Hillary Clinton and the letter she posted online she said and she references not not you know pretty clearly you and
Me she says I know what it’s like dear Lauren I know what it’s like when powerful men gang up in you you know it’s clear illusion to yourself and myself and I just want you to keep going and keep fighting the power and this and
That and lo and behold I go to you know I go to prison entitled white ladies unite yeah it was uh it was something else so so interestingly she becomes a lesbian she decides that she doesn’t want a husband after all whether it’s me or anybody else and um bet she’s not it
I’m just throwing that out there who knows I bet she 20 bucks she’s not enjoying she ended up being kind of Fairly miserable and withdrawing from public Society ended up being miserable continued being miserable and and she write she wrote on X or Twitter uh now X
She wrote that they never should have banned Martin she said that yeah well good for her and you know they said she said I wish they would have banned me instead you know um and part of this is this left reaction to X of now being a cesspool of you know rightwing
Conspiracies uh now that there’s free speech a lot of people in her shoes are saying a this this is a bad place to be you know and they should they should ban me because I don’t want to be here at night you know Etc you know this is a
Place now for people like Martin um and and maybe like you so you know it it’s it’s a funny world uh but I think Lauren um again seven years banned I I spent more time in real Jail uh in Twitter jail than real jail and it’s uh you know
I’m begging for clemency which is better um I was really upset uh about Twitter Jael you know and and if you seem to have enjoyed the penitentiary well no I didn’t go to Penitentiary uh that’s that’s the worst prison system so I went to low security which is the second
Worst these are distinctions a lot of us in the outside world don’t understand the penitentiary is is is where people get raped killed you know where you have to become a white supremacist where you know that that kind of world is a very dark world but there that’s for people
Who get life sentences or things like that and uh Ross albrook sadly is this you know skinny nerdy computer programmer who’s in that world in that mil and imagine Sam bankman who’s you know if if Ross isn’t built for pren man Sam is you know this marshmallow guy
That what gang do you think he’ll join he’s going to have to become Aryan Brotherhood which is going to be hard because his name is Sam bankman freed and he’s Jewish yeah so you know he either can pretend he’s not and and try that or I mean he’s he’s screwed you
Know this this is going to be tough for him Le in Spanish join the Hispanic G that’s that’s not idea whatever Martin scy I I I just think you were the most interesting approach to life and the most life and so I’m grateful that you spent this time with us thank you people
Say the news is full ofes 239 of Jeffrey
