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I’m going to really try to be as sort of civil and polite as I can and maybe my mind will be changed because in this world things are changing so fast why wouldn’t your mind change um so maybe you can change my mind I would say on the question of this group of migrants coming north the one that came three months ago coming north the 22 million who are currently living here uh illegally it’s all sort of species of the same question which is the first qu I mean there are many questions and one of them is what do you you know how do you help other people and a lot of smart people run NOS are thinking about that in Washington and some are doing a good job others are not but the main question the US government has to answer is how do we enforce our laws voted on democratically by our Congress and how do we protect our people the people to whom we have really the only duty that we have right I mean the purpose of the government is to protect you and to help you and again I you know I’m a Christian and I think I’m a person of not particularly good faith but decent Faith okay so I’m always sort of for helping people but that but the government’s job is to represent the voters and enforce the laws that they sent their representatives to Washington to pass and that’s kind of all their job is actually so our law says that you need permission to come into this country and that is the law of every country that is a country and without that you’re sort of not a country so I mean you could ask the obvious question which is you know there are an awful lot of poor people around the world does everyone have a right to come here and go on Medicaid I don’t know I mean if you think so let’s you know speak slowly so I can understand and let’s talk it through and tell me why where does that obligation come from exactly is it written in the constitution is it in the Bible what you know what exactly are you saying but you’re not hearing that instead you’re hearing an awful lot of the kind of moral bullying that has come to characterize all of our political conversations where the person you’re debating in this case I’m debating begins with the presumption of I’m a better person than you I care more deeply for these people than you do and if you were a good person you would agree with me well I mean that’s a theological debate and I you know I reserve a huge part of Sundays for those but that’s not really a public policy debate there isn’t much of a public policy debate here our laws are as they are and if you want to change them send representatives to Washington do that and maybe we’re about to see that happen but there’s a massive cost to any government saying because of political pressure temporary political pressure we’re going to ignore our own laws then well why can’t I ignore the law I pay way more taxes than I feel like paying there are all kinds of things that I would like to ignore so I’m not really sure what the debate is to I mean to be totally blunt with you other than the virtue debate which is not interesting let’s go to Jen here yeah all right so let’s break it down um and backstage uh we had far too much agreement so let’s break that that up um so first of all on the Caravan uh I I feel like Fox News um from time to time touches on it but overall misleads and I’ll tell you why Tucker uh it makes it sound like the caravan’s going to come in and bust through a gate of some sort and then go ravaging in the country well the reality is the reason they’re in a caravan is because they’re seeking Asylum so if they wanted to sneak into the country they wouldn’t do it in a giant Caravan so and and so when you’re talking about the laws there are also laws in place on how to seek Asylum and that is exactly what they’re following so that Caravan actually in a way should be celebrated because they are not going to cross the border illegally they are going to go to a port where you ask for Asylum now now Donald Trump is suggesting that we should reject Asylum out of hand without talking to people now that is not the law and that is not the American way and so and and Tucker I don’t want you to take this the wrong way I it’s I’m not trying to compare you or Fox News or anybody to this I’m just giving an extreme example of what happens when you uh don’t listen to people so we’ve done that in the past uh in the 1930s and 40s uh Jews came here on boats asking for Asylum and we sent them back and uh one particular ship uh that came to Florida that was sent back 25% of those people uh were murdered in a concentration camp and God knows what happened to other 75% there’s sometimes a good reason to hear them out and what we’re asking for is something very simple and that is within the law hear them out it’s not too much to ask for so I would I and I’ll I’ll I’ll let the whole Nazi reference go un un unremarked upon but I would say look if I have one criticism of Americans is they haven’t traveled enough and one I know you have traveled a lot and one thing you learn when you travel is there are a lot of really hurting parts of the world so nothing that is happening in Guatemala right now or Honduras or Salvador is unique to those countries or even to Central America Latin America even this hemisphere that kind of thing is happening all over the world where for a bunch of different reasons most of them political Millions upon millions billions in fact of people are suffering and desperate and of course my heart goes out to all of them the question is what Duty does the US government have to them and I would argue it doesn’t have a duty to them okay it has a duty to its own people now that’s not again I I think people of goodwi have a lot they can do to help those people okay I do think that but the government is something very different and I would also argue that there is a cost to this a cost that the left used to recognize it was once obvious so I grew up in this state in Southern California and Caesar Chavez was a hero I mean we have a day in California dedic at to his memory and Caesar Chavez among many other things he was a serious leftist in economic he was a socialist but among many other things he was passionately in fact violently anti-immigration why cuz he was anti- Mexican you know he was of Mexican Descent of course not because he led a labor union and he understood that supply and demand is a real thing and if you have an overabundance of anything its value Falls that’s why sand is cheap so if you let people in from poor countries willing to work for Less your wages fall particularly at the bottom end among your most vulnerable this was axiomatic on the left for a hundred years all of our anti-immigration laws were the result of lobbying from organized labor from Democrats because they had a responsibility to their people and Republicans management the people who own the fruit companies who hired the pickers were totally for unrestrained immigration legal and illegal because it made their labor costs lower so I would only say and and it’s a more complicated question than just this but this is a huge part of it it’s one of the reasons that wages have stalled and for some categories of people high school educated people they’ve gone down over the last 30 years like this is a real thing and the last thing I’ll say is you if you bring this up everyone wants to make a race question out of it you don’t like them because they’re different oh please there nothing to do with that it has everything to do with what kind of country you want to live in do you want to live in a country where people with very little economic power have even less then open the doors and that’s what you’ll get all right so a lot a lot to respond to there so let’s bring it down one by one first of all uh this is a country and this is not a cliche it’s true this is a country made of immigrants I’m an immigrant I uh and I came in in a legal way so and and I and I want to support that and I want and I think that that’s not a matter of doing me a favor it’s not a matter of doing someone from Honduras a favor it’s a matter of what is best for the country and I think immigrants have built this country whether they were Italian Irish Chinese Jewish and Mexican yes they have built this country and and so I think that is a great value to the country in fact there is demagoguery about how immigrants keep taking from us but the reality is and every study shows this since a lot of the undocumented immigrants pay into Social Security and Medicare as part of the payroll taxes but never get it out they actually put more taxes into the system than they take out of the system and and so if we’re talking about what is the the correct uh policy to have so there is a discussion about reform in in uh Congress that’s gone nowhere but the idea there was to take indentured servitude and double it and that if you work here for 14 years if you’re undocumented you could have a pathway to citizenship now the right-wing said that’s too lenient I don’t know if they want three times indentured servitude I don’t know but my answer is look can we at least go back to indentured servitude so for S years they work and and they pay their dues have they not done enough and shown enough to become US citizens that means they are adding to our country they are not taking away from our country so that is a proposal that I believe in and that I will fight for and and immigrants are are a net positive in almost every way imaginable and and also demagogy on the issue of criminality the reality is native born Americans unfortunately commit crime at over twice the rate of undocumented immigrants so if we’re going to kick anyone out it would be us well not me because I wasn’t born here but um but of course we’re not going to do that either because we all work together and and we can win together now in terms of wages Tucker is absolutely right that wages have been stagnant and they have been stagnant since about 1978 productivity has not the American worker has been wonderfully productive it has gone up by over 200% since that time but if you’re looking to see who took your wages don’t look down look up the guy just last thought here the guy who walked in at and crossed the border without a penny to his name did not somehow Rigg the rules no the person who rigged the rules are the ones that are paying the politician campaign contributions are unadulterated bribery they’re absolutely positively bribery and they are done to maintain power for the economic Elite and that is what keeping your wages stagnant well I I kind of let me just say I kind of agree with some of that unexpectedly but I I think you’re right I mean I I don’t blame really immigrants for anything as people the policies are not formulated by them the question is to benefits from our current system which is clearly totally dysfunctional if you have 20 million or 22 million north of 20 million people without papers in your country it’s clearly not working so the question is who’s benefiting from that and there’s an entire political party that hopes to sort of have a new voter base on the basis of those people and you have that’s true as you know and I don’t think anyone’s hiding it by the way and if you’re for that party I mean I guess you’re for that and then there are also and I think you alluded to this a lot of employers who are benefiting from that but and and by the way you’re also right that a lot of immigrants are in fact exploited I mean we’ve created an entire surf class to serve the day-to-day needs of the rich like that’s just true and by the way if you want to see the most intense opponents of changing or fixing our immigration system talk to like some you know rich people in my neighborhood and it’s like well who’s going to walk the dogs on at Soul cycle like I’m serious and and they have a I mean we’re doing that and and most people are not benefiting only a small number is benefiting so look I I would agree with a lot of what you said are certainly the tenor of what you said it’s not their fault but it does get to a core question which is do you as a US citizen have the right to have any voice at all in who comes in because demographics is like one of the key questions who lives here again not a racial question it’s a substantive factual question and I don’t think you’ll find many people in this country who are opposed to immigration we have more immigrants aggregate you know total immigrants than any country’s everever had in peace time ever okay and you don’t have riots in the streets you don’t have lunatics lots of other countries do South Africa right now killing zabians because they’re mad about unchecked immigration I get it we don’t have that we like immigrants the question is are we allowed to make the decision it’s our country and in that hour I would include lots of naturalized immigrants including you we all have a right to decide and so to say it’s anti- look I’m for dinner parties I have lots of dinner parties I love inviting 12 people over to my house and having dinner if you decided who they were or said you’re not allowed to decide who the 12 people are that wouldn’t be a dinner party would it it would be an invasion or something it would be something I’m very much against so the question is where is the economic debate I mean what I appreciate about your response was you and I disagree with your numbers but at least marshaled them like what is the economic effect of this I grew up in this state when I grew up here it was the richest out of 50 it had the best schools out of 50 it had the most vibrant middle class out of 50 it now has it’s 48th for schools it has more poor people than any state it’s infrastructure is crumbling and the middle class is living in boisee so how did that happen there are lots of reasons it happened but the truth is economics is not magic importing millions of poor people every one of them a good person I’m willing to assume doesn’t make you richer so the rest of us have a right to have that conversation that’s all I’m saying don’t shut it down with racist please but Tucker let let me follow up on that so so I think I know why California schools are uh disastrous because of the propositions that uh M that did not allow us to invest in the schools and uh and now the private schools have have created a way to have rich people bring their kids to one school and then make sure they don’t pay for the other uh but but I wanted to follow up on what you said because look on the Statute of Liberty it says give me your tired your poor uh your masses Etc and and so when the Irish were first coming in they were dirt poor they were escaping a famine the Italians dirt poor the Jews dirt poor under your logic Would we not have kept them out well no because this is a s hold on this is a SI this is a situational before you applaud too vigorously I can win you listen it’s a situation it’s a situational decision so when we had the largest wave up until recently of immigration into this country at the beginning of the last century that was the industrialization period in this country so who manned the factories who made the shoes who wo the textiles immigrants did there was a massive need for labor and we responded by importing huge amounts of Labor we did until 1924 in which case Americans including recent naturalized Democrats looked around was like you know what we’ve had a lot of change change creates volatility in your Society we had a lot of drama the Progressive Movement the wobblies we had a lot going on in this country we like you know what we’re shutting it down and we shut it down from 1924 to 1965 not because we’re racist but because we made the decision now what we’re looking at and this is what drives me maybe craziest is a landscape totally transformed by technology by automation this is not secret knowledge look it up one of the reasons that people are so powerless they felt they had to vote for Donald Trump is because the value of Labor is in steep decline immigration’s part of it technology I would argue it’s probably even a bigger part of it huge sectors of the entire economy are about to be replaced by machines this will mean Massive Internal displacement of workers who will have even less power than they do now into that you’re throwing a huge number of new people and my only question is okay what are they going to do in a world where a lot of the jobs now occupied by people will be occupied by machines and the answer I get is shut up racist okay fine that’s not actually an answer and we have an obligation I think if those in my business like you know try to like convince people or whatever to raise the question and I can’t get anybody on either side to take it seriously at all and that’s when I began to conclude that they’re totally Reckless they don’t know what they’re doing almost any of them they’re lying about it and they’re wrecking the country because that is a very obvious chain of events that’s going to take place and nobody says [Music] it
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