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[Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] okay so I think a lot of us who were watching the um the January 6th committee hearings Etc particularly those of us who knew Liz Cheney very well um began to suspect that wow this is not unfolding um in a way that’s recognizable and then you begin to think well this could be completely illegitimate and then by the end I’m thinking and I’m texting this to L Cheney by the way as it’s happening um this seems like police state stuff uh you were in the middle of it so just if you wouldn’t mind setting the this the story for us what what was your involvement in the January 6th aftermath yeah so on the aftermath side I’m a lawyer and I’d represented a number of witnesses who were giving testimony before the January 6 committee mostly uneventful things I had what kind of lawyer were you so I’m a political lawyer if you can call such a thing I I’m sort of the the living embodiment of a lot of the sort of dysfunction of Washington DC that you need to have such a thing as a political lawyer of dealing with all of the sort of regulatory world of if you want to engage with politicians if you want to give them money if you want to Lobby them if you want to give them gifts if you want to Advocate there’s a whole Myriad of regulations that surround that which create professions for people like me to help people navigate what are the rules of the road if I want to communicate and that includes interfacing with government investigations oversight hearings all of those various act activities and so for 30 years I’ve been a relatively Anonymous lawyer whose job it’s been to help people just follow the rules so that they can be heard they have their opportunity to petition government that’s been my background I had a sort of career transforming moment where I went from running the political law compliance shop for one of the largest law firms in the world a big major international law firm that had massive offices on K Street heading up that political office to being asked by President Trump to be his Deputy White House counsel so for the first two years of his presidency they decided that they were going to need someone who had been around the block for a little while yeah to help them navigate because remember unlike most incoming governments which are staffed by people who have been in government their entire lives and they just continue perpetuating the machine of being government people who are now working in the white house that’s how we do things in DC except in 2016 when President Trump comes in and is not only bringing in people who really don’t come from the government background they come from successful business backgrounds and traditionally not even so much from public companies just not used to the fact that there’s Myriad Washington rules that are foreign to anyone who’s not been part of that world they think that because voters chose Trump they have power but they don’t realize voters have no power correct without a doubt and my job was to be the person who came in and really helped Orient people to how do you navigate this bureaucracy that’s called Washington DC see how do you deal with all of the rules that regulate getting the job done that you were elected for so I was the deputy White House Council whose job it was to make sure that people understood and followed the rules now of course fast forwarding it became entirely too delicious if you have the opportunity to make ethics allegations against Trump’s ethics lawyer that’s a story that’s too good to check and so I became known after having gone into that work and having worked for the president I did that for 2 years and then I moved effectively to the other side of the gates I helped represent the companies that were in the crosshairs I did a lot of work for the Trump organization and I did a lot of work for companies that wanted to interact and engage with the government but I was no longer a government worker I went back to being a practicing lawyer in Washington DC and one of the things that that came along is the January 6 investigation comes along and that committee blanketed Washington DC with subp you you see a lot of the very big names all having been called in to testify but there were some 2,000 people that were called before the January 6 committee including very low-level staffers very low-level campaign workers all of whom got knocks on the door from the FBI handing them subpoenas and all of whom were saying hey well since I’m here handing you the subpoena you want to just talk a little bit about your role as a junior campaign person or a junior staff AF or XYZ within the White House they were all getting brought in before this net much of the scale was much larger than anything that happened during the 1950s and the huak period um and the number of people went to prison much greater then during the McCarthy hearings I mean if you’re looking for the emergence of fascism in the United States like we just saw it right if I can just say sorry I control myself um so what role did Liz Cheney play in this so Liz Cheney who was I guess technically the vice chair of the January 6 committee which is I don’t think actually technically a constitutional role but she was one of the people who was running the January 6 committee and as they had been blanketing Washington DC with subpoenas lots and lots of very very young people would come back into talking to the folks which colloquially occur in Trump World hey I just got contacted by the FBI they want me to come testify I have no idea what to do and so there was a process for some of the younger lawyers to say well let’s try to find lawyers for these people who will just help them navigate this investigation getting brought before the January are these people who smashed windows in the capital or or assaulted cops with no absolutely these are the people who happened to have been working in the Trump campaign in 2020 or had been working in the White House in 2020 or in some way had something to offer with respect to the dynamic some of them not at January 6 the protest oh yeah uh nobody who I was representing was at a protest everyone who I was representing were people who had either worked in the white house or had worked for so they had nothing to do with the January 6th demonstration no the idea I just want to be clear on that was to create a narrative of what was happening inside the White House what was happening inside the campaign from the election in 2020 through January 6 and afterwards and to try to create a political Narrative of what was happening and sort of one of the 101 investigative rules is always start with the junior youngest most people intimidate them get them to say things that you can then use to create a political narrative or whatever the narrative was and I was I’d represented a few of those fairly significant folks but mostly I was being asked to help these very very young people who are just getting hailed before this committee to try to give testimony and it was they’re using the FBI for this just to be clear oh yes I no question I literally they would hand subpoenas and I had one very young she was working in the campaign office couldn’t have been more than 23 24 years old who told me the story not only did the FBI show up unannounced at her door but when she answered the door the FBI said well while we’re here you might if we just ask you some questions about what you were doing what was President Trump doing what was the campaign doing with respect to messaging about January 6th which to me as a lawyer correct there there was a was this girl at January 6th this girl was a campaign worker so she was helping to put out doing Junior research of what was now colloquially called the stop the steal effort that they were going after these younger folks trying to find out what it was that they were talking about and to me as a lawyer in order for the system to work full transparency also requires that people’s rights be protected and that includes the right that you have somebody there who’s protecting your interests if you are a junior person who might have something to offer with respect to what happened in January 6 query to me whether the January 6 even served a legislative function at all but stipulating that it was there for some legislative purpose people who are providing information under subpoena and under oath and under penalty of being found liable for false statements should have somebody there to protect their interest so you make a point that people might not be be aware of so the Congress is the legislative branch of government and so the purpose of committee hearings in the Congress is to craft legislation correct right there’s no other purpose correct committees don’t in the Congress do not exist to use the FBI to Hound their political opponents into prison correct oh correct and not only that but the the framers of the Constitution made it very very clear there are to be three branches of government there is a legislative branch that is only supposed to be making the laws it’s up to the executive branch to execute those laws and then the Judiciary to actually enforce those laws that’s a very clear standard and when you have a legislative body and this is what happened to me and I’m sure we’re going to get into it that decides that they are going to drift beyond their legislative function their fact finding function in support of passing legislation and they’re going to move into a law enforcement method we don’t like this person this person presents a narrative to us that we don’t like we are going to use the full weight and power of the United States government to try and execute that person without any due process of law that is completely unconstitutional and that is ultimately where I found myself at the end of this road so that’s just that’s a police state function that’s exactly and that is that is in fact exactly what what ended up happening to me so um you discovered in the course of this I was going to say you believe but it’s not a question of what you believe it’s a fact that Liz Cheney broke the law during the course of of this investigation yeah I mean the the the nice thing I think is there’s nothing that I’m going to tell you today that’s not written out under oath in testimony that’s in black and white for anyone to see I’ve just been trying to get people to pay attention and look at it but as a and I have filed a lawsuit against the federal government on this point saying that the federal government abused its power and in this case against Me by incorporating and taking certain information Distributing them out obviously there’s a number of things that the government lets you sue them for there are a lot of things they don’t let you sue them for but one of the things that they did was they really invaded my privacy and they did that in a way to deny me my civil rights because it was all in furtherance of just the lawyer represent I mean our our system affords every accused person accused of a serious crime legal representation right correct so you didn’t you weren’t a January 6th I was not a January have you ever planned an Insurrection of any kind I did not plan any insurrections right so I just want to be clear on this like you’re not the defendant here correct you’re representing low-level staffers who were not at January 6th not accused of any crime on January 6th who had nothing to do with January 6th and you’re just their lawyer because they need a lawyer because the people conducting these investigations are so unscrupulous they can’t go in without legal representation correct am I characterizing exactly and where I found myself in the wood shipper was that one of those people people who I represented who had given some 15 hours of testimony under oath before the committee then terminated her relationship with me and gave diametrically different testimony to what had been said before that’s a crime is it some would say but it’s a without even getting into the specifics of this which I hope you’ll explain to us but it is not legal to commit perjury correct correct okay and and it certainly present something of a conundrum when a witness has presented one set of testimony under oath and then provides testimony under oath which could be seen as contradictory to the former testimony and both of those elements of testimony were under oath yeah that presents a signific try that in a deposition correct you go to jail correct well it’s one of the lawyer’s greatest sort of Matlock cross-examination that everyone dreams of is were you lying then or were you lying now I’ve been there in depositions you know they have previous transcri I mean this is but I’m only making the point that everyone knows this this is like really simple you can’t do that you can’t lie under oath correct correct so who is this person and and what did she say so this is Cassidy Hutchinson that we were talking about who who famously testified live before the committee and that it became extraordinarily well known that she was an extremely powerful witness when she testified live before the committee and as one of the elements of providing that testimony there was significant discussion of the fact that she had previously had this Trump lawyer who had effectively coached her not to tell the truth had coached her to say I don’t recall when in fact she did recall all of those things were being accused of me as the lawyer who is Cassidy Hutchinson so Cassidy Hutchinson we I don’t know that we actually overlapped in in the white house together and if we did I I didn’t know her but she came in as I believe started as an intern I think she was 25 years old at the time and ultimately Rose to a very prominent position with Mark Meadows in the Chief of Staff office in that she had proximity and access to a great deal that was happening in the White House and so she was one of these Myriad of witnesses not to my mind unlike a number of the other Witnesses who I had been bringing before the committee who might have observed things and might have seen things had provided her testimony I thought it was over it only happened subsequently that I learned that while I was representing her Liz Cheney was communicating with her behind my back while I was her lawyer now that’s a lawyer 101 thing that you’re just not allowed to do one of the things that’s set up within our legal rules of Ethics in order to prevent an unscrupulous lawyer from manipulating the client is there is a very clear bar rule that says if somebody is represented by a lawyer with respect to a particular matter you the lawyer on the other side don’t have the right to communicate directly to that client except through the lawyer and that’s rule is in place to prevent people from circumventing the lawyer and a rule or is it longstanding this A longstanding this is one of those 101 rules this is a core rule that any attorney would be aware of clearly a core rule that and it’s also a core rule that you can’t do knowingly indirectly which you can’t do directly you can’t and this happened here from all of the things that I’ve seen like I said you don’t have to believe a word I’m saying it’s right in the testimony that her staffers which were lawyers were also communicating and she was working through what I would call a cutout which was Alysa Farah Griffin was effectively operating as Cassidy’s friend who started the process as a goete Elissa Griffin is like some TV girl she is a a prominent uh TV personality and also famously uh not just on The View but also was a I think a contributor for CNN which a lot of folks and I just feel Duty bound to report that she’s tremendously stupid I I just want to say that cuz uh I’m I’m aware of her yes so we were at a meeting here at TCN the other day and I looked around the room and every other person had a kind of Ruddy vitality sort of Pink Cheeks alertness Bright Eyes full mental acuity and a cheerfulness you could almost smell and I asked why does everyone look so good and part of the answer of course is they like what we do for a living it’s really interesting we think it’s important but another reason everyone looks so good is because they’ all had a great night sleep I’m not making this up almost everybody here uses a new sleep technology from a company called Eight sleep they sent it to us and everyone here loves it it’s called The Pod it’s a high-tech mattress cover effectively that you add to your existing bed you don’t need a new bed or anything like that you just throw this over what you have what it does is adjusts the temperature of your bed warmer or cooler depending on what you want and it maintains an ideal sleeping environment all night long so I didn’t know this but as you progress through different phases of sleep your body’s needs change and eight 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meetings as our guys do so okay so Cassie Hutchinson is while you’re representing her is communicating with the other side correct and and what that resulted in and we’ve now learned through some fantastic work that has been done by the house chairman ludmil of the house admin oversight committee uncovered documents that I just would not have believed still existed or would have been turned over to the government which effectively prove that there was this back channel of conversation between Liz Cheney and her staff both of whom are lawyers and others effectively to say we have more we want to say we have more testimony that Cassidy Hutchinson wants to provide whether that’s because she chose to provide different testimony or because she felt gee I just wasn’t asked the right questions whatever the reason was there was this backline communication that was created completely unbeknownst to me that there was going to be an opportunity for another investigation of Cassidy Hutchinson but most importantly to me it was a parallel element of well not only hey I want to change my story and I want to say a lot of really inflammatory things about Donald Trump that I didn’t testify to under the previous times when I was for you but also we’re not going to tell my lawyer this Trump lawyer that we’re having this conversation and we are going to bombard both of you with questions that they had already communicated what those questions were going to be with an effort to try to get me to obstruct Congress in the face of this deposition it was effectively a law enforcement sting operation to get me to effectively block her drag her out of there silence her stop her from testifying in this third interview it was a it they were they were setting you up as her lawyer correct and the idea was that they were going to not only get these very inflammatory facts new facts out of Cassidy Hutchinson but in the process of doing that were setting up a third interview that I was going to be an attendance at and at which time Liz Cheney was going to ask Cassidy Hutchinson certain questions that Cassidy had already fed her saying these are things I want want to say and she talks about in her testimony that they knew that I was going to be extremely upset that these questions were being asked and the expectation was that I was going to obstruct her that I was going to drag her out of I was going to do something was and they did this on purpose clearly on purpose they they test so anyone who’s willing to I mean most normal people’s brains don’t even go to places like that you just don’t think that way these are the people who and you don’t have to comment but they set up January 6th itself was a was effectively uh it was fake um and so it it’s the same way of thinking yeah it’s not straightforward it’s totally deceptive stealthy and and and with respect to this it was explicitly an off the reccords operation by Liz Cheney I had this conversation with her staff afterwards so you can imagine we had in the course of it was in February and March we had gone through we’ done her testimony we’d done her depositions she’d given the testimony those transcripts were out there and then almost 2 months later I get a follow-up phone call saying Liz Cheney wants to do a special interview with Cassidy Hutchinson one-on-one in purpose person in the Capitol building which was all of which was highly unusual because all every other investigation conducted by the January 6 committee was being done either by Zoom or in person with numerous representatives from the committee their staff members if they wanted to attend could attend this one I was told must be in person it’s going to be just Liz Cheney just her Stafford just me just Cassidy Hutchinson and the way that they set this up you’ll remember this is in 2022 when all of the federal government was completely in lockdown because of covid there was no public access to the to the people’s house you couldn’t get in but we were going to be afforded access for the purpose of this special interview that was going to be conducted and it was very surreal because as we were led into this deposition and we walk in it was the top floor of the Canon office building there’s a a little antichamber off of one of the elevators that was completely closed to the public and as I we were walking through there me and Cassie Hutchinson there were Capital police everywhere I was and I remember remarking to myself at the time this is surreal how in a closed office building there are all of these Capital police for this interview that I’m conducting with Liz Cheney I said she it’s really surprising she has so much protection in a closed building what what I didn’t realize is they were there for me they were there because the expectation was that when Cassidy Hutchinson testified to the things that she had already pre-organized she was going to testify with LZ Cheney that I might get violent I might be the one who does something to her and they had you’re going to get violent that was the expectation I mean that’s I am surmising that by the fact that in a closed office building as I walk into this interview which was literally only me Cassidy Hutchinson Liz Cheney and Dan George her staff and then there was was a videographer and a court reporter who were there it was just us and they were Capital you’re a physical threat this is like this weird feminized passive aggression that rules all of our relationships now and it comes from people like Liz Cheney like she’s out of the closet fascist but you’re the threat but the thing that was really interesting and and and the part that I I found particularly unusual is that coming out of that it it was a phenomenon in every one of our interviews that every time after Cassidy Hutchinson had testified while I was representing her there would suddenly be leaks in real time about the fact she had testified what a great witness she was and my obvious initial assumption is this committee is leaking on me immediately as soon as my client goes in and it was my job to protect her my job she was somebody who had presented to me as saying I don’t want to testify I don’t like the January 6 committee I don’t want to do any of this how do I get through this process and be able to have a job on the back end that was the mission as was presented to me I will testify if I have to but I want to be able to get through it but these leaks kept happening and and I kept assuming that it was the January 6 committee so after this third interview the one that I’m describing to you which was there was only four of us in the room literally as Cassidy and I are in the cab driving out together I have on my phone a text message that had clearly come while we were testifying asking me about her testimony and I was livid about that that in fact in real time somebody’s leaking to the Press so I took a screenshot of that and I sent it to Dan George the staffer and I was really upset I sent him a text and I still have all these texts and I said well that was really fast you guys did that and I had a subsequent conversation I said why are you destroying this poor Girl’s Life by every time she testifies you are leaking about it and now you’re leaking about this third interview you’re destroying any career opportunity she might have had and what Dan George told me he says I assure you this was not us who leak nobody on the committee knew we were doing this interview it was only Liz Cheney and I and that Dan George said to me and in fact the other committee members would probably be upset if they knew that Liz Cheney had done that and he told me all of that in the context of trying to assure me that they weren’t the ones who had leaked in real time the fact that we had gone in but it was extraordinarily unusual to me that there was so who did it who did the leaking yeah well um I can speculate as they as they say in the uh in the horror movies the call might have come from inside the house yeah uh it might have been my client who is and in fact one of the things that oh you think it was Cassie Hutchinson did that I I have no way of knowing of course but what I do know is that in real time when all of the allegations against me broke I was reached out to by former friends of Cassidy hutchon saying I can’t believe what they’re doing to you I have text messages in real time between me the friend and Cassidy in which Cassidy is saying the diametrically opposite Stefan wants me to cooperate the committee I don’t want to cooperate with the committee and also saying Stefan assures me that the committee’s not going to leak but I don’t trust that I and this is Cassidy Hutchinson texting to her friend I’m going to run my own parallel operation I’m and she identifies I’m gonna have a line of communication with the New York Times and Politico and she’s already talking at the very outset of our representation that she doesn’t trust that this will stay quiet and that she wanted to run her own investigation I filed a defamation lawsuit against U Weissman a MSNBC person I included all of these Tex and the federal prosecutor yes who as you can imagine when all these stories came out I had just unending scorn but one of the things that Cassie Hutchinson had testified to in her deposition when she was talking about me among all of the negative and bad things that she said about me some of which I think were just not true but largely a lot of which and it sounds a little weird coming for me can be explained as a somewhat impressionable person coming in thinking she’s going into an adversarial relationship but but one of the things that came out of that was Cassidy was very very clear Stefon never told me to lie never told me to lie and that when Andrew Weissman and others literally tweeted well her new lawyers are the good lawyers unlike the lawyer that told her to lie well I just had had enough at that point it’s like I’m just not going to be a victim anymore we have defamation laws for a purpose I’m going to Avail myself of them and in that complaint the text messages that I’ve just described to you I’ve screenshotted and they’re in they’re in the complaint but it was somewhat clear to me from text messages that I’ve seen that there appears to have been from the very outset a messaging operation that was being run by my own client completely unbeknownst to me now I’m basing that on just text messages that I’ve seen and basing on the fact that Liz Cheney’s staffers assured me nobody else knew that this was happening and they would never leak it because they wouldn’t have wanted their own committee to know and it’s it’s ironic I’m a little almost embarrassed about it now but in the context of that conversation that I had with Dan George I had this I was sort of I was I was still at that point sort of a naive institutionalist Washington lawyer I had grown up in Washington my whole life I’d been around that I had incredible respect for the institutions of Washington for congress for the media for when Walter kronite said something it was a fact incredible respect for the agencies the state department the intelligence and so I was still somewhat in in that world where I had this respect and as I’m having this conversation with Dan George the staffer I’m saying I cannot believe you guys were leaking literally while we’re in there and he was assuring me he hadn’t I had a convers with Dan George I said Dan George Dan you and I are going to work in this town far too long to be playing games with any leaking to the press and I said I assure you I’ve practiced law for 30 years this is not how I do business and I have too much respect for the Congress and I said and I have too much respect for Liz Cheney to ever leak and I and I asked him at the time I said I want you to please go and tell Liz Cheney how much respect I have for her and that I would never leak something that came out of the committee now Dan George tells me he had that conversation with Cheney I don’t know if they actually did but all of these are reasons why to me I was confronted with a highly highly unusual scenario whereby there was this small operation that was done this small inter interview lots of security but I didn’t think anything of it at like at the time it was unusual but it moved on it was only later after I had been fired as Cassidy lawyer and after she had testified live on TV that she subsequently provided lots of testimony describing in detail the nature of our interaction together and it was in that September transcript that I learned all of these back Channel things I learned the degree to which there had been Communications that had been going on how they had set up this interview how they had expected me to block her from testifying how they had sort of laughed about how surprised I was that a lot of these new facts were coming out and she literally testifies in that interview that as as we’re walking out of the Canon office building the two of us we’ve completed this interview I didn’t obstruct her the transcripts are there I never blocked her from testony testifying I never told her I never created objections to coach her I didn’t do any of those things but she literally describes in her testimony as we’re walking out the door she turns around to Dan George literally behind my back saying something to the effect of mouthing I’m so screwed and that Dan George mouths back to her I’m sorry now when I’m reading this in the transcript and it’s all there for anyone who wants to read it I realize this whole thing had been a setup and if it was simply a question of well we just want to get the truth from Cassidy well then just fire me get a new lawyer let her testify no this was very important that I be sitting next to her while she provided this new inflammatory testimony with the eye towards having me obstruct her in some way why were they so intent on hurting you you’re just the lawyer well I’m speculating on on that um but but one could infer that you need to have a reason why testimony changed why was it that somebody Who provided testimony One Way asked open-ended questions where the lawyer didn’t obstruct didn’t block the person in fact in the first two interviews the only objections I Ever Raised was when Dan George was asking really incoherent questions and I would say do you mean this and he would literally thank me it’s all on the record don’t have to believe me those are the only times I interrupted um but now you have to say well now the person who was asked hey what happened on the ellipse and tells one story now wants to tell a very diametrically different story about strangling the present strangling Secret Service or lots of things there has Wheel of the limousine these all came out as new evidence so let’s just can we get specific about some some of the allegations that she made in her subsequent interview which you say contradicts previous testimony yeah so so she am I misremembering or did is she the one who said that Trump was such a lunatic that he tried to steer the Beast the presidential limousine from the back that that testimony came for the first time I believe in her live testimony that was the sort of very dramatic testimony where she says I you know they grabbed the clavicle and all of those that testimony came out live the two things that she ever told told you that before no now and and I want to be fair to Cassidy which might might seem odd that I’m saying that but I want to be fair to her because she testifies that in our first meetings she started to describe to me this traumatic thing that she had heard second or third hand about some incident that had happened in the drive back from the ellipse and how I had been cutting her off now I don’t have any recollection of that conversation happening between us but I can also say if she had raised oh I’m very concerned that I heard third hand about a thing that I would have Cut Her Off I said look that’s not what you’re here for you’re a fact witness your job is to testify to the facts that you know you’re not an expert witness you’re not a speculation witness you’re not a I’m guessing witness you talk about the facts they’re going to interview every single person who had anything to do with the January 6 incidents they’re going to talk to the drivers talk to Secret Service it’s not your job to go and talk about things that you think might have happened I could she threw it out there and on television it’s quite a lured story it was everywhere and okay so now two years later do we know if that was true did anyone ever come forward and say I saw Trump grab the wheel of or assault a secret service agent I mean well here’s what we do know um we do know that in real time immediately after that live testimony Tony orado who was the Secret Service detail I think he was working the um chief of staff’s office I think he was like a deputy of operations he testified immediately or at least said publicly that’s not true and and there was another really interesting and Cassie Hinson never claimed that she saw it oh she was never this was this was a second or third hand and then when are you allowed to throw that out in a hearing just like I heard that yeah it’s not it’s not hearsay rules okay you’re thinking it’s like well you can’t talk about it out of court statement for the rules are a little more wide open than that you can talk about hear say and and I would allow witnesses to describe I heard Fred say XYZ happen well that’s something you heard you are absolutely entitled to testify to all of those things but what happened in this case is she testified about I had heard that this happened well the people who would have told her that said I didn’t talk to Cassidy and that didn’t happen and I and I I knew I was in trouble I want to back up a little when I knew that I had just sort of gone from this was just another client and just sort of an unusual set of circumstances I had been fired I had been very publicly fired because I was a trump lawyer and she had put out very publicly I want to testify I don’t feel comfortable having this Trump lawyer all fair I mean that’s perfectly her right to do after all and then she had given this very dramatic testimony that had been refuted by people who were physically there I was representing another witness another very Junior witness who had been working in the White House on January 6th who had been very closely inter inter relating with the operations people this is in so you imagine those that testimony happened in say June that she testified live on TV in July a month after this had happened I’m still representing Witnesses before the committee one of these Witnesses who had been working in the White House had been asking and we went through an entire deposition and the deposition ends in a very standard way where the investigator says hey have you had any other conversations with any Witnesses about your testimony today have you ever talked to Trump about your test no I’ve never done that it’s a very standard set of questions have you talked to anyone about your witness other than your lawyer and he says no no no he say oh wait he says actually I did talk to someone he says immediately after cassid Hutchinson testified live on TV Tony or called me and said this makes no sense to me I don’t understand why is she doing this what have we missed he tesi and this is all in a transcript it’s all out there but I’m sitting there as now the lawyer that the committee knows used to represent Cassidy Hutchinson was fired because I’m a trump lawyer I’m now representing a different witness who is testifying I had no knowledge that he was going to provide that testimony but he’s now testifying that in real time either while Cassidy was on TV or in the immediate aftermath the fact witness with knowledge had called this young person and said this isn’t true now you can imagine for me as I’m sitting representing this witness all of the eyes in the zoom come to me and that was when I realized I’m in trouble here because I heard my witness give a story that’s inconsistent with the star witness she had already testified on TV she was already the star witness for the committee I knew they can’t bury that nugget the way they could have buried everything else because I heard it and when I saw all of the eyes on that Zoom turn to me was when I knew I am now An Inconvenient Truth for this because I heard him testify coincidence or not within a month I received a doj subpoena criminal subpoena I’m the subject of a criminal inves ation I also received this is insane I yes and I and I received an email of course that I still have uh from Dan George again saying we’re really concerned that you’ve been sharing information between clients we think you have a conflict of interest and I responded to him I said a lawyers who represent witness would have the ability to share information there’s no secret about that I said but here Dan I’m telling you I did not tell this young person to say that story he said that story I’m telling you it didn’t happen who is Dan George exactly can you so Dan George is a lawyer I think I think that he um I mean he was he was one of the senior lead investigators I worked with him on a number of witnesses the part that was a little shocking to me is he he’s a congressional staffer Congressional staffer uh who then went to the Department of Justice after this I think he might I I don’t know for sure I think he was working with Jack Smith I think he might be now in the US attorney’s office he might be an assistant us attorney in Connecticut or somewhere I don’t know but he he was in Department of Justice before he was then he sounds dishonest we had a very good rapport um I was surprised by what was happening and and he and I had worked together on some very sensitive things and I thought we had something of a level of trust I just know what I just know the things that happened I know that right after this young witness gave that testimony that directly contradicted the star witness that I received a phone call from Dan George basically saying they were very concerned that I had been feeding this information and then I got a confirming email from him saying we had this conversation you denied that you’ve shared it that’s all fair enough um but that was when I knew that that I was in trouble and then out of the blue I start getting doj criminal subpoenas that I’m suddenly under criminal investigation I have no idea what for I clearly had been part of doing a lot of work representing a lot of trump aligned committees I’d done a lot of work for the super Pacs there was a lot of talk of how was money flow happening it was in my mind still a legitimate area of inquiry for the Department of Justice I didn’t really think a lot of it at the time clearly I’d never been the subject of a criminal investigation in my life I don’t hope to be again um but that conversation then happened I then haded to hire a lawyer to start providing all of the information one of the things that was really interesting is the subpoena from the doj you know we want we want to know all of your Communications with Tony orado which I’d never had any and we want all of your text messages and Signal messages and everything with Cassidy Hutchinson and all of your other witnesses that you would write I was clearly getting a forensic criminal audit from the Department of Justice was responding that but still didn’t have super high blood pressure just thought that’s just a cost of Life of working in Washington and being a trump lawyer if you haven’t been subpoena I guess you haven’t really practiced law in Washington DC I guess but it was only later when out of the blue I learned that I was effectively going to be made the Fall Guy for obstruction all of the obstruction that had happened for Cassidy Hutchinson and that that happened right as a way to explain why her testimony changed correct we did an interview with a woman called Casey means she’s a Stanford educated surgeon and really one of the most remarkable people I have ever met in the interview she explained how the food that we eat produced by huge food companies big food in conjunction with Pharma is destroying our health making this a weak and sick country the levels of chronic disease are beyond belief what Casey means who we’ve not stopped thought thinking about ever since is the co-founder of a healthcare technology company called levels and we are proud to announce today that we are partnering with levels and by proud I mean sincerely proud levels is a really interesting company and a great product it gives you insight into what’s going on inside your body your metabolic Health it helps you understand how the food that you’re eating the things that you’re doing every single day are affecting your body in real time you put stuff in your mouth speaking for myself anyway and you don’t think about it you have no idea what you’re putting in your mouth and you have no idea what it’s doing to your body but over time you feel weak and tired and Spacey and over an even longer period of time you can get really sick so it’s worth knowing what the food you eat is doing to you the levels app works with something called a continuous glucose monitor a CGM you can get one as part of the planner you can bring your own it doesn’t matter but the bottom line is Big Tech big Pharma and big food combin together to form an incredible malevolent Force pumping you full of garbage unhealthy food with artificial sugars and hurting you and hurting the entire country so with levels you’ll be able to see immediately what all this is doing to you you get access to real-time personalized data and that’s a critical step to changing your behavior those of us who like Oreos can tell you firsthand this isn’t talking to your doctor at annual physical looking backwards about things you did in the past this is up to the second information on how your body body is responding to different foods and activities the things that give you stress your sleep etc etc it’s easy to use gives you powerful personalized Health Data then you can make much better choices about how you feel and over time it’ll have a huge effect right now you can get an additional two free months when you go to levels. link Tucker that’s levels. link Tucker this is the beginning of what we hope will be a long and happy partnership with levels and Dr Casey means so unless they blamed you for that they would have to explain like how exactly did she testify to something completely different one could infer that that was in fact the the purpose and and what what had happened which was shocking the part that really just sort of upended my world and and made me then realize the degree to which the institutions were all aligned to create a narrative to further a political purpose as opposed to anything else was I think this was by December of 2022 I get a phone call from Pam Brown of CNN who I had known previously saying hey the committee has been talking that they are going to out the various people who are obstructing Congress obstructing Cassidy Hutchinson we are going to identify those people I said well that’s great but I didn’t have anything to do with that and she says no we CNN are in possession of a transcript that Cassidy Hutchinson gave 150 page transcript that she gave on September 14th in which she identifies you Stefon as the person who told her to lie who couched her to say I don’t recall when I do all of these things we’re going to run with that story and I said well I’m telling you I know nothing of these allegations I’ve never heard these allegations the January 6 committee never called me as a witness they called 2,000 people they never called me in if this is a fact-f finding Mission you would think that perhaps I would be called at a minimum to be told especially since you’re being accused of a crime literally a crime two crimes of felony of obstruction witness tampering these are these are felonies and CNN tells me we’re going to run a story tomorrow in which we are going to identify you as the person who obstructed this witness we’re going to accuse you of a crime of course I was shocked I said I’ve never heard this I can’t really provide a lot of comment well on that Monday as the story is collapsing my world has not yet collapsed I at that point have now received notice from CNN that tomorrow Tuesday they’re going to identify me as the person on that day on Monday I received a phone call from one of Cassie Hutchinson’s former friends saying this is outrageous what they are doing to you I have text messages that I have previously provided to CNN and other news networks and these text messages make clear that you Stefon were telling Cassidy to cooperate and she didn’t want to cooperate now I have a conversation at that point with Caitlyn polance at CNN who’s the CNN reporter who’s running this story before it had come out and I called Caitlyn myself I said Caitlyn I am aware that you’re going to run this story that is going to literally accuse me of a crime and I’m aware that you have a transcript that I have never seen before that is going to make these accusations but I’m also aware that you are in possession of text messages that directly contradict that narrative you have Cassidy’s text messages saying Stefon wants me to cooperate I don’t want to cooperate I am going to be the one who’s going to do this media narrative on my own behind his back and so I’d say Kaitlin I said I’m not asking you to exonerate me but if CNN is going to run a story identifying me as a criminal and you are in possession of additional facts that culpatory documents you have an obligation to run that and Caitlyn pollan’s direct quote to me was that’s not newsworthy I said how is that not newsworthy this is directly relevant she said that to me Caitlyn polance Caitlyn polance of CNN who is still there at CNN and I then had my lawyer communicate and have numerous conversations where I say I know and those text messages we’re referring to are the ones that I put in in the she didn’t Caitlyn pance did not deny having those text messages corre did not deny said it was not newsworthy so then at that point I know this is just crazy so CNN just for to State the obvious CNN is participating they’re not covering news they’re participating as you know a part of the machine to destroy you correct and it is clear to me that CNN has received confidential Congressional documents pertaining to me that I have never seen CNN had had for however long it was CNN had had this transcript to work on the story I had no idea of these all so corrupt it’s hard to believe well it gets worse for me unfortunately which is that story then comes out the next day and you can imagine what a bombshell it is did did they include the exculpatory text messages to this day never and in fact the things that that I beg what Liars what corrupt Liars CNN is yeah I I begged CNN I said you’re going to release a transcript in which a witness is say that I coached her to lie while I was representing you have in your possession the actual transcripts of me representing her at a minimum post those two so that the public can see well let me actually read the transcript of Stefan representing Cassidy Hutchinson and let me judge for myself whether he did the things he was accused of doing I have text messages with Pamela Brown saying please I’m begging you if you’re going to destroy my career and you’re going to put up this transcript accusing me at least put up the others to this day I don’t think that they have to this what Pam Brown Pam Brown is the she was a producer I think that she’s she’s moved on I she might have been the one who reached out because she had known me previously I think she’s not an onair person she was she was an she is an on-air person I think right okay so I thought Pam Brown right yeah she she has a news program and I think she she took a high because she was having uh a child or children but I think she’s back on the air and but think her involvement might have only been that she was the one who was calling me to just let me know that this was coming and then saying but you need to call Caitlyn because she’s running this so I beg them please put this up I don’t I think if you go on CNN’s today and you say Cassie Hutchinson transcript the only thing that comes up is the September transcript accusing me I don’t think I don’t think you could even find those here but this is where it became clear that there was this interplay not only did I realize that on the these allegations came out CNN had all of this already and it was not lost on me that a lot of the people who were on the January 6 committee who might potentially have had reason to give this to CNN are now all contributors kiner is over there Alysa far Griffin is now a contributor over there some of these they’re all being paid by CNN some would yes clearly being paid but what was what was particularly painful for me was two hours after that story breaks I then get a notification from the District of Columbia bar saying this is to notify you that we have an open bar investigation relating to all of this conduct within three hours the DC bar does not operate within three hours based on seeing something on CNN for the first time it is clear that in addition to working with CNN before breaking this story the January 6 committee or somebody was also working with the various bar organizations that I’m a member of to set this story up I literally received Bar complaints created on their own accord within hours of this story breaking that does not happen unless they have been forwarned that all of this is coming and as you can imagine you can see why Trump has trouble getting lawyers well me represent Trump or people around Trump they destroy your life and that is that is the real core concern that it is fundamental to this democracy that everyone have effective assistance of councel everyone has the right it does not matter if you are a guantan detainee or if you’re a republican you are entitled to counsel even if you might be out of favor with the establishment Elite and as Shakespeare said in Henry V 6 if you want to destroy a society the first thing you do is kill all the lawyers well that’s what’s happening now one within I would say within a few months I started getting Bar complaints filed against me by the various institutional organizations set up there’s a group called The 65 project which filed Bar complaints and the 65 project is named because these are the 65 lawyers that they originally filed Bar complaints who had been working with President Trump out of 2020 they adverti to this day if you go on the 65 project website you will see they proudly advertise a six-figure adby that’s running right now in the six swing States destined for Republican lawyers saying do not represent president Trump we you will be disbarred do not represent any of these conservatives we are watching you that is on their website right now any idea who’s behind that group uh yeah it’s a it’s a group there’s a lawyer out of Utah I I’m actually I filed a bar complaint against him just recently for for this but but these are groups that are designed to intimidate Republicans against representing conservatives and the whole idea is it is extraordinarily difficult to get a big law lawyer to represent a republican it’s just we can’t get those people you can’t be a lawyer in a white shoe or a major law firm and represent a Republican and this is explicitly advertised within maybe a month after I received this 65 project bar complaint I get a phone call at 7:30 in the morning from The New York Times saying we’re going to to run a story about a group called lawyers defending American democracy that has filed this very very indepth bar complaint against you would you care to comment that was at 7:30 in the morning by 8:30 in the morning the New York Times was running this multiple page complaint uh alleging accusing me of numerous crimes lots of bar violation saying very proudly we filed these Bar complaints and this is signed and you can imagine I’ve been an established lawyer in my whole life I I rever these institutions they got more signators on that complaint and it’s all online I don’t particularly want anyone to read it but it’s there the the bar complaint was signed by I think they got more than the 51 former Intel officers it was for filed by former Attorneys General former deans of various law schools multiple past presidents of various bars this who’s who of the glitterati of of the legal profession all of whom sign on to this letter like I said law professors former state senators former Attorneys General and what was of course most concerning to me was four past presidents of the DC bar had signed on to a letter knowing nothing about me other than what had been fed to them accusing me of crimes to take my license away well for me imagine now reallying I have to now defend my bar license before the DC bar against a complaint signed by 60 some luminaries including four past presidents of the very bar that I’m going to be defending myself against it’s pretty easy to feel like the entire world is a RAID against you you have no chance whatsoever now I have to say in all fairness I was pleasantly surprised at how professional the DC bar and the Georgia Bar were they conducted a thorough investigation of me and all of these facts and even in light of all of this happening the DC bar dismissed my cases with no discipline I was shocked cuz I was too cynical at that point to believe that I mean considering the number of like actual criminal lawyers I know you who behaved in a criminal way I mean most lawyers I know I would classify as criminals and none of them ever get their bar licenses pulled I mean it doesn’t this is not a self- policing profession just it’s just not no and but there and yet but they’re going after you but if you represent Trump then that that does trigger the enforcement and they are explicitly messaging today as we’re talking right now on the 65 project they have proudly we are running this campaign aign in the swing States geared where big law lawyers and the partners at these law firms and these lawyers are going to see it threatening them do not represent Trump in any post-election challenge because we will come after your license and that is clearly an effort to intimidate lawyers against defending anyone’s rights clearly president Trump’s rights it’s running in the swing States they’re proudly doing it right now you it’s not speculation why they’re doing it they’re they’re proudly doing it and it’s having the desired effect it’s very difficult now to get a lawyer who’s willing to do election Integrity work for Republicans because you know you’re putting yourself in the Crosshair of this institutional machine now when you know clearly CNN breathlessly reported how I had was subject to all of these Bar complaints they never reported that I was cleared of those claims or that my bar was never in Jeopardy and that I never receive they never wanted to report any of those things it’s only the story and then move on but for me the damage was incalculable I for me it was impossible to have faith and trust in clients uh and all but it’s it’s a concerted effort and and it was one that and the cost must have been real too oh very real I mean that as you can imagine I had criminal complaints against me I’ve had Bar complaints against me I have also I also filed my own lawsuit against the federal government for all of these things and it was it’s unusual I filed that lawsuit 18 months ago against the federal government it takes a long time to do this I made a lot of factual allegations in that complaint because I knew them to be true in my head I had lived that experience but I had no expectation that I was going to be able to prove it it was basically one person’s word against an entire industry’s word as to what had happened I was shocked at and I filed that complain anyway I made all of these allegations that I’ve describing here I made those allegations in writing 18 months ago well chairman lmil I have no idea how doggedly conducted investigation and he actually produced all of the text messages between Liz Cheney and Cassie describing everything that I had put in my complaint I never thought it would happen why would I assume that Cassie Hutchinson while she’s doing this is screenshotting signal encrypted Communications from Cass from Liz Cheney and turning them over to Congress I I had no expectation that she would do that but she did well I’m glad she doesn’t sound like a genius either but I’m thankful that she did so to Liz Cheney what crimes do you believe she committed well so what I firmly believe happened and and I’ve filed a bar complaint against Liz Cheney on this and this is all spelled out the um this prohibition now there there if you’re a member of Congress and you write the laws of the country you have the privilege of shielding yourself from a lot of the consequences of your own actions it’s built right into the Constitution a speech and debate clause you cannot go after a sitting member of Congress for anything they do in furtherance of a legitimate legislative purpose I don’t think this was that but put that as it may but it’s also very very difficult to go after a member of Congress for things that they have done and that’s probably appropriate that that’s the case but she is a member of the bar and I have black and white evidence that in fact she acted in a way that’s contrary to her professional obligations we have filed the America First legal uh has done a fantastic job it’s all up on their website you can read all of it uh articulating all of the various ways that the various lawyers who were involved were clearly violating their fiduciary obligations to the bar but to me it’s not even so much that what what I am most concerned with is it was clear to me that it became politically expedient it became necessary in order for the political narrative to be presented to the United States that this witness is presenting this bombshell testimony and is unimpeachable in the face of all of the other evidence that might make it impeachable it became politically expedient to destroy me and the United States Congress and all of the mechanisms of this legislative not law enforcement body was working with CNN and bar groups to bring all and all of the media tension that they had the ability to bring and I didn’t even know there were allegations all of the might of the federal government was brought to bear to deny me life liberty and property with no due process of law whatsoever even putting aside this constitutional separation of powers that you had talked about before which was the legislative branch is supposed to legislate the Department of Justice if they had simply just done a referral and of course both Cassidy Hutchinson testifies that she did a criminal referral Liz Cheney told ABC news that she had done a criminal referral on me fair enough that’s the job because the Department of Justice has 250 years of regulations that are designed to protect the due process rights of the accused the doj will never comment on or confirm that there’s an ongoing investigation pre- indictment and that’s designed to protect the rights of the innocent of course and those rules are there because the department of Justice’s job is to enforce the law well Congress circumvented all of that with regard to me they went right from we need to present a narrative we need to destroy this person we are going to use and literally they highlighted the day before that this was going to come out they had been rolling out transcripts of all of the various testimony on that Tuesday whatever that was the 22nd or whatever of December it was right before Christmas it was it was it was horrifying um the the hate mail that one receives on Christmas um from I I received um so many Beyond like just death threats but so many lawyers emailing me saying you’re a disgrace to the legal profession and I’m thinking to myself you’re a lawyer you just tried convicted executed me without ever hearing from me without affording me any due process or a right to confront my accuser and you’re accusing me of being the disgrace to the bar you’re the one who is circumventing all of these things that you were trained in law school and that’s effectively what Congress did as well it was a concerted effort to create a political narrative and I was a very Inconvenient Truth to that and the fact that the United States Congress a legislative body was able to Marshal all of those resources in an unconstitutional way to destroy me there’s I’ve been in practice a long time I have a lot of very influential clients I’m a relatively connected person if Congress can destroy me at a whim they could do that to anyone and nobody would want to live in a world where either a single member of Congress or a single Committee of Congress could select an individual Citizen and say we select this person for execution and we are going to Marshall all of the legislative resources we have in conjunction with outside bar groups and in conjunction with media organizations and we’re going to create a narrative that is unrecoverable no one would listen to me of course for an entire week after that I you couldn’t even turn on the television it was panel discussions of well Stefon broke the law and he’s a lawyer should he be disbarred before he goes to the to jail or should he go to jail and then be dispar that was the panel discussion the given take was which should happen first mostly CNN uh well I mean certainly MSNBC and but it was there was a lot of omission to me I I had Fairly good relationships with a lot of reporters a lot of print from New York Times and Washington Post and who knew that this story they knew me but just I can’t report my producers will will’ll never get this past the editors um I I somewhat tuned out and and you can imagine it’s not just me who’s going through this I’ve I’ve been married for 30 years I have grown children I have children who are just about Cassidy’s age and I have to sit and and I lived this experience I knew what happened between us imagine the faith that it takes and the Loyalty that it takes for my wife and for my children to sit and watch on TV these accusations this is the criminal thing that your dad did or your husband did and and I’ll tell you another another an which is I know I mean it it was one of the sort of most traumatic parts of this whole experience yes traumatic experience so I go through all that and and at the time that all of this is coming out I am an active subject of a criminal investigation I’m clearly anticipating that there are going to be litigation is going to be happening I’m actively pursuing my own laws I can’t speak at that point and I know if I do it’s my word against an entire world’s word and I have no doubt that at the end of our relationship Cassidy Hutchinson was taping me I have no doubt that they have the ability to pull out Snippets now what happened was now that all these text messages come out that completely track everything that I said that the text messages that chairman ludmil has produced exactly track the conversations that I was having with Cassidy where she was saying oh Stefan’s telling me this it’s exactly the things that I was telling her it’s in real time it was only later after I’d been fired that all of this changed but this all happens and on and I’ll and I’ll remember I said well I’m not going to say anything I’m just going to lay low I’m Anonymous I’m just going to lay low fast forward perhaps a year on on the day that my dad died I get a notification Cassie hutson’s coming out with a book and the teaser of the book is explicitly says and she’s going to talk about her interplay with the Trump lawyer who told her a lie so all of a sudden I realize and of course it’s on the day that my father passed away I’m going to have to relive this entire experience again and a book tour again and all of this is and I am powerless and I remember that it was extraordinarily traumatic I think her first was she goes on Rachel mattow the first time uh is like sort of the first launch of from this from this book tour and I’m sitting there on the sofa with my wife and I know whatever words come out of her mouth with Rachel mattow in this live interview I’m going to own my wife is going to own my children are going to own for the rest of their lives whatever allegations are made I’m going to own and she went through and she told the story now at this point this the story that she told in the original September transcript got watered down a little bit for the book and the book was still pretty horrific but it was watered down version of the September but I remember watching this with my wife and and it’s just an act of faith for my wife to sit here with me and just stay with me for this but I remember at the end of that first commercial break and I’m sitting on the sofa with my wife watching the Rachel mat thing and Rachel mat says and when we come back from break Cassie is going to discuss the seven men who sexually assaulted her in the course of her interaction with the Trump World cut to break come back after seven men the seven men or five men or whatever it was it’s what it’s what’s on the tape where they say that’s the topic of conversation the men who sexually assault her and I’m sitting here and I’m looking at my wife and I say I promise you I never touched her I I promise you and but but the trauma of it was if she had chosen is so nut to identify me as one of the people who had I was defenseless I would have I couldn’t have denied it if she had said we’d had a relationship or that I had done something onto I was helpless there was nothing that I could have done now fortunately she never said any of those things she said that about other people but it highlights the trauma of going from a fairly well-respected lawyer who doesn’t mind going to the grocery store and being seen by their friends to having everyone did he do these things is he really a criminal and you know all faith and credit to her for sticking by me and to my kids and it’s I was some muchat shocking to me the degree to which Millennials now they don’t have the same reverence for media like I I remember sitting down saying hey some some really bad stuff is g to come out about Dad and uh it’s not true and I and they’re like we don’t believe that don’t worry about it and I remember them making the joke to me I like we didn’t think you were cool enough to get canceled and I was like yeah well I I guess I did get canceled but what what she said is so true that is so true people under 30 wouldn’t even occur to them to believe CNN they don’t and and that can I just ask about Cassidy Hutchinson I’m sure you’re prohibited from saying things because I’m sounds like you’re still involved um in these suits but what is her motivation do you think so okay now this might shock you it’s very possible to take a pretty charitable view of the circumstance that surrounded Cassie she testifies at length about a very conflicted trouble things that I had no knowledge of at the time when I was representing her but when she gave her September transcript what she describes is this traumatic fear of having been a trump person who thought she was going to go down and work in the office of the former president down in Mar Lago didn’t get that job had difficulty finding a job because anyone who comes with the Trump labels it’s very difficult time getting a job and then she gets win that she’s going to be receiving this subpoena and I didn’t know any of this but she testifies to it that she’s traumatized about the consequence of and that she talks about how she went to all these different lawyers trying to find a lawyer who would represent her and how these lawyers for what should have been a one-day deposition were asking $150,000 retain just this traumatic experience of finding a lawyer she’s totally alone under attack exactly and she also testifies how she’s having these conflicted conversations with her mother with a former member of Congress saying don’t sell out don’t let Trump people represent you once you sell your soul to the Trump people they’re going to own you and she testifies that she brought to our relationship this baggage that she had finally given up she couldn’t afford to hire her own lawyer she finally had to sort of let the devil into the house and hire me to represent have me represent her and that she was extraordinarily conflict she came into our relationship with an adversarial mindset that I was completely unaware of she thought everything she told me I was going to turn right around and tell Trump so of course you’re going to go and tell that person everything you think Trump wants to hear I don’t want to testify I just want to be loyal I just want to get through this I just want to have a good job those are all things she said to me and they’re all things she put in text messages to all of her friends those text messages are all out there now but it’s very easier to see how someone would come into the relationship not trusting their own lawyer right and she testifies of course she testifies numerous times about all the different times she lied to me during the relationship but I was shocked to learn that while I was representing her the degree of the conflict was such that when I would stand up and go to the men’s room while we were doing a prep session she testifies she went on to my computer to look up all of my emails to see who my clients are like she was running an investigation on me literally behind my back now I’m not making that up that’s in her testimony CRA I had no knowledge that there was this adversary relationship and for me she comes in my job like I had for numerous other people a single message I come in I tell what I know I don’t speculate every lawyer gives the same advice anyone who’s ever been deposed gets the same advice your job is to tell the facts as you know them you don’t speculate you don’t guess you wait for the next question to be asked you’re not to go and find new facts you wait for their question you answer honestly that question you wait for the next question if you don’t know the answer to a question it’s perfectly appropriate to say I don’t know the answer to that question every lawyer gives some version of that adition just like I did but if you come into a relationship with this hostile mindset that this person is not my lawyer this person is somebody else’s lawyer and I’m forced to work with with them when a lawyer gives that same admonition to say I don’t want you to go and seek out facts I literally said to her because she wanted to like put together calendar she want to do internet research I literally said ironically it’s not your job to write the book on January 6th I literally said that to her I said they’re going to interview thousands of witnesses and those thousands of Witnesses are all going to tell their version of facts and create the mosic you only tell the facts that you know you don’t guess but if you are coming in say expecting to be misled in furtherance of somebody else’s objective and a you’re a 25-year-old who’s never been through this I guess it’s possible that you could feel like oh he’s wink wink telling me exact what to do exactly so it’s possible to now clearly and and when you look at the text messages between Cassidy and Alyssa as they’re describing the back Channel all of the things that chairman Loudermilk has now uncovered you can see they’re having that exact conversation Stefan says well if they’re going to bring you in for a third interview we can’t make it look like you’re eager to do a third you’ll never get a job so Stefan’s going to tell Dan George we’re only going to comply with subpoena we’re ultimately going to comply but I want you to have a subpoena so you can tell people later you they described this whole conversation entirely accurately those were the conversations we were having sometime between that June 6th when all these text messages happen June 8th or 9th whenever I got fired and thereafter things became dramatically different by September she was giving testimony to Liz Cheney accusing me of crimes and accusing me of telling her to lie things that just as chairman L mfile just don’t hold up right so she’s weak and Afraid and so she winds up on Rachel mat here’s something you may not have known back in 2015 the Congress of the United States repealed something called the country of origin labeling act now why is this relevant to you well it means among other things that when you buy beef at the supermarket that says Made in the USA it may not actually be in fact it could be likely is from a foreign country it means that repackaging foreign meat can be enough to get the maiden USA designation it’s a lie it’s an absolute lie most people don’t even know what’s happening so how can you be sure that the meat you’re eating is from the United States and has been raised with the highest quality standards and is the tastiest it’s truly made here well it’s simple you can go to our friends at Merryweather Farms Merryweather Farms is an American small business it’s based in Riverton Wyoming we know the people who run it and they’re great people and they have great meat they ship the highest quality meat raised free from growth hormones and antibiotics directly to your doorstep it’s delicious we eat it a lot including at this table these are Americans these are americanmade products and because they’re cutting up the grocery store middlemen their prices are actually cheaper 10 to 30% cheaper for the best meat they are the real deal again we eat that meat at this table from Riverton Wyoming they’re the best Merryweather farms.com use the discount code TCN 24 and you get an extra 10% off again that’s Merryweather Farms m e r i w t h eer farms.com it’s worth it okay so your exper your experience suggests such a level of sinister corruption that it’s it’s kind of it’s G want to be thinking about this all week um but let’s zoom out a little bit and try to understand what this kind of behavior from Liz Cheney and the professional staff on the committee means for the investigation itself I’m now convinced that they had no interest in finding out what happened on SE on September September January 6 September 11th all these dates to keep track of um we don’t have you know they they’re hiding the videos they can’t they won’t answer basic questions about how many undercover law enforcement were there on that day etc etc etc but just to your conclusions tell me what they are do you think this was a good faith effort to find out what happened that day well no uh and and I’m guided to a great extent by again chairman lmil the the whole lmil the house admin oversight committee investigation to some extent and he’ll have to speak for himself I might have started some of that in that when all these allegations came out about me alleging that when I was representing Cassidy I was doing all of these coaching I said well there’s videotape all I need to do is get the videotape and show it and that will exonerate me and I was having trouble getting that videotape so I called up chairman lerm and I said look I just need some help on this there are documents that I need for a matter that’s personal to me that I’m working on can you get me the videotapes of my representation of cting because that will to my extent to a large extent vindicate me and he say okay sure we’ll get that and he realized he’s like they’re all destroyed like he realized not only were the documents these videotapes all destroyed and this is not speculation he has letters from Benny Thompson saying we destroyed the videotapes because we got advice we didn’t have to keep the videotapes of what of all the witnesses who were deposed right so when I was sitting next to all of the witnesses Who provided why you destroy those videotapes well you would wonder why there now what the committee says well we’ve saved the transcript so we didn’t need to keep the video well that was expensive to keep vide exactly the opposite in fact as a as a legal matter more technical it’s the videotape that’s the evidence the transcripts just simply an aid to that because lots of they destroy all the evidence well that’s what chairman lmil has made his mission and he has been dogged in that and it is Chairman Loudermilk if I can speak for him firm conclusion that in fact the evidence was manipulated chairman Loudermilk I mean the house is in Republican hands they have a speaker who’s third from the presidency his name is Mike Johnson of Louisiana he could instantly reveal all of this stuff to the public to whom it belongs including the many tens of thousands of hours of videotape from January 6th but they’re not doing that why is Speaker Johnson allowing this stuff to remain Secret at the very moment when kamla Harris and the rest of the democratic party is campaigning for president on lies about January 6 why not release it all and let the public know it’s their house it’s their property they own it they own this government I’m totally confused as to why speaker Mike Johnson is doing that yeah well I mean that’s perhaps an issue above my pay grade but at the same time things were destroyed in fact as I recall perhaps even this is insane your offices had an opportunity to look at a lot of the videotape not a lot of the videotape but you know one tenth of 1% of the existing classified videotape and it showed that there was peace inside the capital and that uniformed law enforcement were allowing people into the Senate chamber at the same moment they’re telling us it’s an Insurrection so like it the videotape that we got which is a tiny percentage of the existing classified vide tape showed that their story about January 6 is a complete lie it’s totally made up yeah I well I heard a rumor and you can tell me if it’s not true that when some of your producers first started looking through the videotape there were all sorts of annotations and there were all sorts of cross references to allow it to be searched nobody knew that it was someone affiliated with you was looking at it and that then subsequently when it was learned that perhaps outside force associated with you was looking at the video tape all those annotations disappeared that might be false but that’s what I heard that’s correct and I got fired uh shortly after um and was attacked you know by people I I worked with that Fox News for daring to air videotape that belongs to the public that shows an unexpec account of what actually happened so like the the complicity of institutions in Washington in maintaining the lie that January 6 was the Insurrection by trumpists uh is complete like everyone was involved in the conspiracy actually from what I can tell I think one of the lessons to take from this is that never again should there be a congressional committee that’s not bipartisan now if there was an error that was made the fact you cannot have Congress running a what is quasi criminal investigation like this ever again did we ever find out how many um undercover law enforcement agents were at January 6 do we know that I I don’t know I again I’m just reading the newspaper like everyone else at this point on on those issues that’s a core question though if we’re trying to understand what happened just as an attorney who was involved and and I know you were you know involved in trying to help Witnesses you know um but big picture why wouldn’t the public be allowed to know that do you know no clearly that clearly anything that’s conducted in the name of the people belongs to the people just like the building in which that investigation is conducted people exactly and the investigation belongs and I mean again I I don’t know for sure but certainly what I had heard was that as Congress was turning over there were a number of documents that were in the possession of Congress that were going to be shipped off to the archives but they knew that when the new incoming speaker McCarthy took power that he was just going to call those documents back from the archives and so what happened and again I don’t know this firsthand but what I’d heard was that a lot of these documents were then shipped over to the executive branch to allow the executive branch to give them to the archives so that when McCarthy comes into power and says hey I want my documents back the archist says no no this came from the executive branch you have no power you don’t get these documents we gave them all over to Secret Service or whomever and that that’s been really thwarting Congressional inquiry into what happened it’s so corrupt it’s hard to believe this is our government it’s it certainly had it certainly had a corrupting in impact on on me in terms of what happened how government abused power in a way that should not happen but it also so you cannot have an ostensible truth finding organiz operation that has a political objective the two are not compatible if you’re going to be searching for the truth it cannot be in well and also I mean look the truth is the Capitol Hill Police used deadly force against an unarmed woman on January 6th there was never any investigation into why they murdered Ashley bab which they did um Michael bird uh who had demonstrated Reckless Behavior with a loaded firearm leaving a loaded Glock in the men’s room in the capital he murdered murdered Ashley B that’s my view but we we can’t speak authoritatively because there was no investigation into shooting an unarmed woman in the capital um the whole thing like that’s insane were there any Republicans do you know in the Congress who like demanded an answer to these questions it doesn’t seem like there were it it seems by right it’s been hardpressed and I know as part of my efforts I I was seek I said well I want to have all the internal staff emails let me see the emails that were going on while all of the things that I was interested in were happening and I’m getting a lot of resistance well we really don’t want to we don’t think it’s appropriate to turn over staff emails it’s like Wy we’re the public if there were emails about me that were being sent by official staff there shouldn’t be some proprietary reason or there shouldn’t be some Queensbury rules that says well we don’t think it’s cth for us to be turning over the private emails of our staffers well when I was working in the white house every single document that we it was all presidential records everything was searchable everything can be turn has obligated to be turned over why is Congress not subject to those same rules why why do we not have that same transparency why are we clinging to some esoteric notion that well it just wouldn’t be gentlemanly or it wouldn’t be C for us to reveal staff emails uh because then maybe they might do that to us I was like no how about you guys only do things in the name of the people that you’re willing to stand behind how about that being the rule but that doesn’t seem to be so how is this um we’re just talking about this off camera but maybe you would like to talk about it on camera as the product of Washington son of someone who worked for the government I mean in exactly the same position um how this changed your view of how the city operates in its institutions yeah well I mean it’s it’s shocking of course sort of the psychic break of all that we had talked we had almost the same I upbringing Washington DC private schools everyone who was my friend were the children of people who were either in the private sector or public sector working in these revered institutions and I grew up and until extremely recently had nothing but the highest respect for our agencies and the media I mean as I said if if Walter Kony said it was true if theate School were you I was class of 1984 so I’m a little older than you and U but same world same exact world all of my friends and grew up having a dad who was from that world doing work that I really respected that was what I believed and and even while working in the White House never had a concept that there was any sort of conflict between the institutional sort of int intelligence world and us in the White House one one of my jobs as I said I was the compliance person when I came in and so we did all of the onboarding I brought all of these folks in and it was my job to do hear the rules of Washington briefing for all of the White House staff well I was also the adjunct to the National Security Council so it’s sort of like a Intel arm advisers to the president which are career staffers primarily and I thought well we’re all on the same team now Trump we’ve just come in had no idea that Comey was having interviews with Mike Flynn you know at the same time I had no idea this was happening but I thought well we’re all on the same team let me just invite all of the NSC folks in for the same briefing that I’m doing for the staff because we’re all on the same team and I just naively it’s only been eight years but it’s it seems crazy to even think something naive and so literally I do these briefings and I get phone calls two days later from the Washington Post saying we have three people who are in your briefing who all said you said X and that this is this horrible thing for forp I said that’s a not true why would three people randomly select you Washington Post reporter to tell the exact same story to this kind of sounds like an OP against the Trump Administration it was going to highlight it was something that was not going to paint Trump in a fair light that the ethics lawyer had said whatever the rules were and that’s when I realized we’re not all on the same team here that there’s the this operation that’s going on and and there’s a real sort of psychic disconnect for me because I had tremendous respect for these like I had tremendous respect for the FBI and the doj and and I have to say in all cander with respect to me as far as I can tell they’ve they’ve been honorable and everything they’ve done with respect to me but what you see on TV um there’s a lack of trust and my children my children’s friends have zero institutional faith in these organizations that I grew up revering and one of the things did your children grow up in the area DC uh no they were outside of the DC bubble I I I left DC you know sometime after I after I graduated high school but still sort of keep up and I practice at a DC that’s where I live I go there that’s that’s where I work that’s my life but it’s a much different core philosophy it’s a different view of how these institutions operate and one of the things that if Trump were to win that really needs to happen is we need to restore these institutions the faith in these institutions that if State Department is doing something if the Intel agencies are doing something that they’re doing in the interest of the public we can’t have the 51 Intel officers suppressing we can’t have that happening anymore I mean that’s one of the things that just you know for me what’s changed me is I’m a lawyer the legal Institution is is of prime importance to me we cannot be subjecting lawyers to attack because of who they represent that’s undemocratic that’s unconstitutional we can’t have a philosophy where you kill all of the lawyers for one side this whole notion of legal Warfare that we are going to intimidate people against representing disfavored political parties under threat of disbarment that has to change and that’s something that I’m pretty passionate about and that’s something that’s sort of my life mission now to the extent I’m surviving all of this uh we just have to fix these institutions we have to return them to what they had so you’ve decided to fight back I I know a bunch of other lawyers who I don’t think I know anyone who’s uh quite been subjected to what you went through but um I know a bunch of people have been hassled and most of them have decided I just I just want to get away from this I don’t want anything to do with this it doesn’t help me in any way it doesn’t help my kids my wife doesn’t care for it you know Etc you’ve decided to fight um what are you going to be doing to fix this system so so I mean you are the first person who’s wanted to hear my story so just getting the facts out I mean this has been two years and I have spoken to so many reporters and I said you don’t have to believe a word I say just read the transcript it’s all sitting right there nobody wants to touch it nobody’s ever wanted to report it well in the words of CNN it’s not newsworthy it’s not newsworthy exactly and so getting the word out is important but um I’ve been really blessed to be working with the America First legal which are they recognize we can’t have a functioning democracy if lawyers are operating under this culture of fear I think you’re the ones who coined the phrase it’s it’s a culture of fear that nobody wants to raise their head above the waterline for fear that they’re going to be the one who get popped off and it’s very disconcerting knowing that we have an election coming up where everyone is determined to have rule of law enforced and the only way rule of law is enforced and people have faith in democracy faith in the Integrity of our elections is if they know that there is going to be true accountability on both sides of the aisle that the rules are going to be followed and you cannot have rules in democracy being followed unless you have lawyers to help navigate and today as we speak there’s an active ongoing effort to intimidate Republican lawyers from engaging in any of this conduct for fear of getting disbarred for fear of getting kicked out of their law firms for fear of being banished from polite Society in the legal circles I mean I certainly received a bar complaint by 60 some prominent members of the bar and prominent members of legal Academia have you ever seen any of them since oh I’ve never met any of them ever I mean this this was no but but I am now filing Bar complaints um I’m doing what little I can do to create some accountability and transparency clearly if it’s just me I will be squished again as quickly and easily as I was squished the first time but I have a little window to maybe try to create some awareness that we can’t go on as a society where not everybody has the right to effective lawyers and and I have to say one of the things that’s been really gratifying of this whole experience I mean I have a lot of clients and a lot of clients who I represent would have had every opportunity to distance themselves from me for their own personal gain I mean I’ve I’ve represented Newton kalista Gingrich since 1998 I’ve represented a number Senator Kelly leer herel Walker a lot of a lot of corporate groups I won’t name because if I name them that’ll cause them harm just the fact that they’re associated with me but they could have left me out of political experience and you learn who your friends are none of them did they stuck with me said we know you we know your core even though there’s a there’s a risk to us in associating with you as our lawyer we’re going to stand by you now there are a lot of people who didn’t do that a lot of people said this is you’re too hot we’re going to termin our relationship with you but the one gratifying thing out of all is you learn who your friends are you learn who will stick with you through thick and thin and like I said it’s you you can’t go through something like this without learning how strong your relationship is with your spouse how strong your relationship is with your children how strong your relationship is with your God like if we didn’t have those pillars and if those pillars weren’t tested every now and then you never know how strong they are so the one good thing that comes out of this is that those pillars of faith and family and professional relationships have been stress tests for me to an extent that I wouldn’t wish on anyone but withstood that now we’ll see what the repercussions are of this but that said that’s my mission now is if I can sort of contribute back to rebalancing our legal institution or having some small role in rebalancing our government institutions to the respect that they used to have I think that’s a pretty noble Mission at least it makes what I went through potentially worth it if you can say that in well I do think I mean I can relate to a lot of what you’re saying um I can empathize and I I do think learning who your friends are and finding out that your family really does love you no matter what I mean that is a massive upside like that’s a beautiful thing I personally feel privileged to have gone through events that have proved that everyone I love really loves me back I know that for a fact right not guessing not just hoping like they had an opportunity they had an opportunity to go the other way no and they chose not to take that I mean I’ll speak for myself I haven’t gone through anything like you’ve gone through but you know knocked around a little bit it’s well worth it just to find out that your kids really do love you you know it’s pretty great well my mission in life is to make this worth it and I’m still figuring that path so last question what do you what do you think when you know you flip on the tube and you see Liz Cheney and Cassidy Hutchinson campaigning with KLA Harris yeah well I mean what’s what’s particularly painful for me is that the the basis of that conversation is to highlight the importance of ethics and the importance of government Norms like that’s the message that’s being conveyed it’s like we’re the party that reveres ethical behavior and by us being here together we show which side we’re on um that’s a very tough message for me to take it’s so nuts I mean I just think big picture there’s no place more unethical than Washington I mean they never apologized for the Iraq War you know it’s like it’s that’s not hard you know if you can’t even apologize for the Iraq War then you know you’re truly rotten and you know that you are does it drive you crazy when you see them well sure because this is all fairly post-traumatic stress disorder for me I mean everything is I mean obviously my life has changed my psychology has changed I am not the same person I was I am more difficult to be around I I do not trust clients I am a very hard person to talk to at times because of this balanced to me you’re kind that’s it’s being in your presence I’m happy to do it but it’s it’s very difficult um it’s very very difficult to trust clients um but it is one of those things where you have to make good come of bad things you have to and that’s my mission don’t you find that there you know there are a lot of people who will betray you and who are cruel and Hollow and serving evil but there are also some just absolutely wonderful people and don’t you see them more clearly yeah now than you did before yeah well and you learn and I I mean clearly it’s easy for someone to feel sorry for themselves it’s easy for me to feel sorry but there are people in prison right now who would did nothing more than walk through escorted through the grounds of the capital there are people who are subjected to much worse than what I’ve been subjected to and so you have to have a perspective in a lot of respects very fortunate I I have resources I have means I have contacts I have very good friends who have the ability to make things happen I’m not helpless in all of this and this all happened to me it makes me much more concerned for people who don’t have access to all of those resour and it’s my mission in life like it’s a lot of people’s mission in life to take care of those people they can’t do this I can have some small say in that and that’s what I’m going to do bless you thank you for telling your story I really appreciate thank you for having me I’m really grateful for oh my gosh it’s I can’t say it enough it’s a corrupt system that um has no claim on our Allegiance at all that’s my view thank you thank [Music] you so it turns out that YouTube is suppressing our show I know shocking that in an election year with everything at stake Google would be putting its thumb on the scale and preventing you from hearing anything that the people in char charge don’t want you to hear but it turns out it’s happening so what can you do about it well we could whine about it but that’s a waste of time I’m not in charge of Google or we could find a way around it a way that you could actually get information that’s true it’s not intentionally deceptive and the way to do that on YouTube we think is to subscribe to our Channel subscribe and you’ll have a much higher chance of hearing what we say and we hope you will
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