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drugs is a transnational business so you need a transnational strategy so if you have two administrations that are like forcing their own narrative really protective both of them really talking a lot about their own countries and you don’t see a joint strategy that’s really not helping because they the narcos are thinking transnational and they’re working transnational the opinions of the guests and host are their own and do not represent the opinions of Ironclad the border patrol or the Department of Homeland Security we cut through the partisan talking points we’re not interested in perpetuating fear we’re interested in seeking truth hearing what’s really going on on America’s Borderland welcome to Borderland and Ironclad original I’m your host Vince fargas in today’s episode we have a award-winning Emmy winning journalists investigative Journal named pen Ramirez and she Graces us with her time and explaining to us a lot of the investigative journalism work she did and explaining some of the corruption that she was able to unfold in her investigations it’s an incredible conversation I hope you guys enjoy it here it Well ma’am it is an honor to have you on here thank you um I was a little intimidated by reading your background that you have a very extensive background in investigative journalism and the work that you’ve done in writing and so one it is an honor to be able to interview someone of your status in the journalism space uh but two I’m really excited about talking you know about this subject that is been in all the media all the time now with drugs and Mexico and and everything else and so um the corruption all these things and so it’s just exciting to talk to someone who’s done a lot of work in the space and so thank you for being here with us thank you would you mind giving a brief bio for those who are listening and watching of your history yeah so my name is Penny Ramirez I’m an investigative journalist uh I started my career in local journalism in Mexico I’m Cuban but I have spent the last 20 years of my life between the US and Mexico and um I used to work as an investigator correspondent for Univision I spent seven years there and for the last year I have been first leading the investigative unit and now leading co-leading the company uh with futuro media which is a nonprofit news organization based in New York and we do mainly podcast documentary films and investigative journalism also limited series so my work currently is divided between leading the company but also leading the news and investigative side of the mission what got you into doing investigative journalism well I think investigative journalism is something that you do not something that you are it’s something that you are not something that you do uh and in my case I’m an investigator journalist that’s that’s the way I think that’s the way iach appr life um I remember when I started dating my husband then he went we went on a weekend to Puerto aarta Mexico and as soon as we landed on the airport I saw some airplanes there and I started writing down the plates of the airplanes and he was like why are you doing that and I said oh because I I have been doing an investigation about uh how the the the cartels have been using American airplanes to Dru dealing and there were several um airplanes there with American plates so I’m I’m I’m telling you this anecdote to see that even in a moment that I was like most focusing on becoming in love with my husband I was it’s just the way I think the way I approach life so all my life I have been doing investigative journalism and I think now is more needed than ever because we have so much misinformation and disinformation going around and we have so much um information in general people getting fits of things through social media through Tik Tock through videos on YouTube through mainstream media as well and we are you know we as professional journalists are competing with some much content that is created around and people are really needing to know what is true what is something that is more deeply reported and I’m proud to say that I think even in this moment of a lot of competition you know for Content I think investigative journalism still has a unique place in the agenda because the way that we approach things with more Nuance more complexity more getting into the bottom of things it’s something that people need and people value yeah I think you’re absolutely correct I think because of social media people have been receiving information whether it’s true or false uh and taking it as it is truth for them right and the investigative journalism side is a more deeply orchestrated information machine that is usually based on facts that are pulled from documents interviews and whatnot and so the gu the investigative journalism side to me is probably the most truthful journalism when I say that journalists are supposed to be leaning in the fair and truth right but it’s kind of swayed where not now journalism on the mainstream media has become swinging agendas and not totally rooted on facts and so the investigative journalism side I think is more important because it’s based on a lot of Truth and uh in in documentation and facts and so yes I agree I think it’s very powerful and it’s why I’m happy we have you here today thank you so you took 8 years to research uh in four countries and with more than 177,000 documents to finalize and publish her book uh the millionaires War I can’t really pronounce it in Spanish the way the title is supposed to be and I apologize because I’ll mess that up but what inspired you to take such a deep dive on the War on Drugs well you know I started investigated the case of the you know Dirty Money On the War on Drugs a little bit of by chance because I it’s a funny story I I was based in Mexico City at the time and I I I I saw that this was a potential investigation around one particular person henar Garcia Luna that was at the time the leader of a powerful cabinet position in Mexico he was leading the security in Mexico uh and in during that time Mexico is receiving a lot of money and support from the United States via something that was called the Merida initiative that was um an initiative that started under Democratic um governments and basically it started sending billions of dollars to Mexico to help potentially preventing the drugs from coming uh from Mexico and South America to the United States to be the you know the vast demand of drugs that we still have in the United States um so the US was sending this this money all this money billions of dollars to Mexico and one of the main people receiving that money was this person Garo Garcia Luna and I discovered by at the end of the the administration of Felipe Calderon and in 2012 that he was planning to move to Miami and I was like hm curious why you’re moving to Miami if you are just just such a prominent person in Mexico at that point and I discovered that he was you know for for several years um while he was working for the government he was also preparing his um departure to the United States and uh buying houses buying apartments in mexic in in in Florida south Florida mainly Miami and he was doing it with the help of a family of people who were having at the same time millions of dollars in contracts with the Mexican Government so he was like giving this people money uh to to get equipment and to get uh software for you know spending part of the money that the US was sending to Mexico and at the same time receiving big favors from them like for example I discovered that he moved to a$3 million house in Miami that was sponsored by this uh business people and at the same time then I started covering something that other journalists was also covering that that was that this guy was having kind of a dual life uh because he was working with the Mexican Government and really close with the DEA he was at at some point the main and closer Ally of the U of the EA in Mexico but he was also taking bribes from the cartels specifically the caloa cartel so the reason why I have been naming my investigation the millionaires of the world of the millionaires of War um is because Mexico was declaring our own drugs but at the same time the people in charge of that war were at the same time working for the cartels and working with the US government and working with the with the business people that were profiting from that world so it’s like we have we have been having and we still have a lot of losers of that world in both sides of the um you know of the Border we still have like hundreds of thousands of people dying from overdoses today in the United States and we have hundreds of thousands of people dying because of the violence in Mexico so we have a lot of reporting about you know and you you have been reporting some of it yourself um about who are the losers you know who are the people who are like forcing forced to leave their houses in Latin America forced to move um throughout the Border even with all the dangers or you know facing a lot of a lot of problems a lot of trauma but I thought and I still think that there was a lack of reporting about the winners so who is profiting from this who was profiting back in the day and who is in still today from legal corporations like big corporations that are like quote unquote securing the Border or you know um trying the drugs to prevent from coming to the to the US streets to the more informal winners who are of course the drug leaders but also a lot of corrupt politicians and corrupt people that are taking bribes or are taking any advantage of this soal War so that that was my Approach no no it’s good it’s good I like it I like it but it’s also like like you say like real estate agents if they work with the cartel and they help them purchase but then they receive monetary value from that well then they’re part of the problem as well or they’re part of the winners winners who who are quietly receiving funds throughout the process of helping exactly so it’s like who is who is really profiting from this and if you see even you know they’re legal people for profiting from this so if you go to for example if you if you check today about the deportation machine in the United States you will see people benefiting from these deportation flights and they’re legal business people is not that they’re doing anything illegal but they’re are profiting from a business or they’re profiting from um detention centers and or they’re profiting from you know this all these programs around preventing the drugs from coming to the United States but on the other side you have still a multi-million business of drugs that you know we started with marijuana then cocaine and today’s mostly fentel that is highly profitable riching the streets of every single city in the United States and making the cartels richer than ever yeah and you know you said Corrections facilities I was a Corrections offer officer for a private prison at one point receiving my $23 an hour right years ago and now realiz that I was part of the system that was receiving an income based on this whole immigration smuggling this whole Space of that which is interesting when you look at it I remember a few years ago when I was still in Univision I was I work on a special documentary that we call deportation Inc and one of the angle of the story was was this the centers like the one that you worked at and how they were you know if you they were charging the government per night per person yep yep like it was like a five stars Hotel you know the the the the the the prize I can remember at that for sure bet it was over $200 per person per day or $300 per person per day while the people people working there were like you said making not a lot of money per hour so it is a highly profitable business if you see that in that case is a legal business a perfectly legal business but you have a lot of illegal business going on at the same time with people profiting from you know making the fental or smuggling it through the Border or transporting it or Distributing it to the US cities but also taking Bry for looking to the other side that’s the interesting thing about the drug space there’s so much corruption and you know I’ve talking to interviewing enough people to know some of the you know some of the police officers the ones that are not receiving money still have to look away at times you know because they they’re they’re still involved in some capacity they might not have to take money but they will look away or else they risk their lives when not doing that so everyone is involved in this in this in this kind of conversation so when you when you wrote the book um for those who are unfamiliar with Nardo Garcia Luna uh what is a big role that he played in the war on drugs like what was his what was his big thing well um just for people in the US to understand at some point he was called the Mexican coover by the US authorities he was like the big man the big name on in Mexico that was like you know playing as as the guy who was connecting the US government the money that was coming from the US that was going from the US uh to to Mexican institutions and um he was at the same time the people the person working like closely with the da agents that were like working in Mexico he was also receiving a lot of information like classified important information from US agencies that were providing some information to Mexico with the purpose of Mexico acting you know against the cartels so so he was receiving a lot of valuable information provided by the United States he was at the same time the one he that was leading a lot of a lot of the efforts to capture this leaders and something that we have seen first in my reporting and the reporting of other colleagues and last year and this year I had been covering h a trial of Garcia Luna we haven’t talked about it but after many years that he was spending a nice luxury life in Miami after he left offit in Mexico he was detained so he was arrested in 2019 not in Miami but in Texas and he was accused formally accused in New York by a grand jury of being sort of a dual agent working at the same time for the government Mexico of of Mexico and for the caloa cartel so what we learned during that trial is that well Garcia Luna was meeting with people like really famous and important people in the United States like Barack Obama like Hillary Clinton like a lot of high members of several in that case was Democratic administrations and he was receiving money receiving information receiving awards from the United States as the best please of the Year Etc and but but but I think the information that he was receiving was very important because he was profiting with you know from there and he was then passing that information to the cartels so what are the what what is the kind of information that he was given to the cels according to what we learned during the trial he was for example telling like oh be careful you’re going to be detained or the US is preparing this indictment against you or I’m going to do this operation to detain you so I’m telling you so you can run before the police came comes or the the N Navy or the solders so he was some sometimes he was like a point in the police chave in a city and not just appointing any person but appointing a person that was loyal to the cartel or and this is one of the most extreme examples he was providing uniforms and IDs of some of an organization that existed in Mexico back in the day that it doesn’t exist anymore that was kind of the FBI in Mexico and he was allowing the narcos to use like real uniforms real IDs from that Corporation so the this narcos mainly from the inala cartel could go into a Rivals territory dressed as police officers with real IDs to confront them as if they were part of the government but they were not part of the government they were the Rival organization so imagine a guy who can do all of this while at the same same time he’s been photographed with the president of the United States or at that time the secretary of state of the United States is there any belief that some of the information he received from the US government was to protect the C cartel was used to protect the C cartel for sure yeah we don’t we don’t think you know I have no proof that the US knew that he was corrupted or when he was corrupted so something that I have been investigating and something uh it was told during the trials well is that at some point the US not just with him but in general US Agencies have this technique of planting some information to really make sure if that person is loyal or if there they can trust a person or a person that they’re collaborating with and this is not just happening with Mexico has it has happened with people they collaborate in Mexico or in Central America or in Colombia or even in the Middle East so this is this is that technique that the the US Agencies typically use uh to plan some information and to see uh if this person is loyal we think that some of that happened um but if but I have no proof If he was indeed only playing with the caloa c tell or also taking money from other organizations the one that is you know is confirmed because he was convicted for this was the that was the C cartel but at some point he was he was you know working with several fults from several organizations crazy could you explain how the idea of the War on Drugs initially focused on domestic issues but eventually involved millions in US tax dollars yes so when the War on Drugs was declared in Mexico 2006 it was mainly to contain you know an escalated violence that Mexico was experienced at the time so it is true that Mexico was seeing you know um more crime more murders in general but the the issue that it was declared as a war which is an informal War because to have a proper world you need another part so you’re War against something but in this case you were war against you know you know were you were declaring a war against something that didn’t really exist as a thing that was the Narco world because Narco world is not a thing is a compound of several organizations smaller and bigger organizations and even within the organizations like for example again the ca cartel is not a triangle of hierarchical um um Power and is you have a bus that is a bus of another bus and it’s a bus of another bus it’s an organization of people who work together and try to benefit from selling the selling the drugs basically and violence it is a part of the organization to maintain control but it’s not the purpose of the organization the purpose of the organization is to make profits from selling and distributing drugs if they need to be violent to achieve that goal of course they will but the violence itself is not the goal so when Mexico declared the War on Drugs first the first thing they did they did was to send some troops some soldiers to some specific parts of the of the country with you know things were getting dangerous and the the population living there there was in fear Etc all that is true and then at some point the US started providing more help and more money and that’s why they signed this agreement called the Merida initiative and they started sending billions of dollars to Mexico and what was the initiative for mainly there were commitments on both sides um the US was committing for example to lower the demand that is something that we know that never happened and still is not happening today no Mexico was committing to lowered um corruption which is something that we also know that never happened happen and didn’t happen and it’s not happening right now so both um countries failed the purposes that they own they set uh for this and now they what they did recently in recent years is they they they didn’t cancel the agreement they just Chang it to another type of agreement that ex still exists today and what they have been doing is mostly like providing information providing some training uh some at some point providing some equipment and providing some money and where do those billions go sorry that’s a good question I have been tracking that for many years so some of the money as I have been able to track it went to this uh contracts like government contracts for things that were for example I’m going to put a surveillance system in one of the cities with more um you know with a greater number of murders like and they did have some results but we don’t know if all the money was really spent on the things that they need to do it because at some point also the cartels were profiting from this equipment that they were like sort of using information that was obtained by this and other part of the money was for uniforms or for you know constitutional reforms or for um send in some people to be trained in the United States so a lot of the money end up trying to build a new system judicial system and justice system but it’s obviously not working if you see the numbers again on both sides of the Border because we’ll still have hundreds of thousands of people dying in Mexico every day every year and the same with people dying in the United States because of the overdoses what’s going on everybody I want to let you know about an ongoing effort in Western North Carolina to help victims of hurricane Helen and how you can help our friends at the Sentinel Foundation the hurricane has displaced people around the region and destroyed countless homes however Sentinel is on the ground helping they’ve been actively getting critical supplies to Residents in some of the area’s most isolated locations they’ve been able to provide over 60 Starling systems to fire departments police departments and churches so that they can communicate and coordinate for their communities they’ve also organized both aircraft and ground units to transport and deliver donations so far they’ve accepted and organized and estimated 7 million pounds of materials and distributed about 4 million pounds to support the ongoing relief efforts Sentinel has also continue to monitor reports of child trafficking exploitation within the area of operation through law enforcement find out more about their efforts to help hurricane victims and their anti-child exploitation efforts and to see how you can help please check out Out Foundation sentinel.the military and they end up being part not just of losetas but you know the cartel so there is a reason study that came out last year that I think tells a lot about this um so if you see in Mexico one of the top employers is the Dr cartels so the Dr cartels is one of the places where you have more people directly on indirectly working for them because they are working directly as you know as killers or as people transporting drugs or as people making the drugs or as people carrying for some Fields you know up in the mon for different things but you have a whole indirect economy related to the drug cartels as well so if you go to some cities like maslan in caloa or kulak or some cities in tamale lias you will see that a lot of legal business that are in there that maybe are for you know to sell ice cream or is a restaurant or something that is officially unrelated to the drug world but the money that was used to open that business was dirty money from the drugs so you have a complicated situation because you have entire economies or economies in some cities that are like partly uh Dependable of this dirty money and even if you have pretty decent people making a pretty decent life um getting their salaries to work in a restaurant and they don’t have idea that they’re also part of the laundry machine because the money that was put into opening that business is money from the drug related business so right now if you see it’s it’s really hard to differentiate in Mexico uh what money is is is legal money and what money comes indirectly from this business and this is of course um easier to see in some cities some states yeah I I was filming a TV show in teate and we stayed in a really nice hotel and I was like this is really nice and there was an assumption that it was built off of cartel money and someone said that to me and I said I wouldn’t doubt that that there might be some truth to that because some businesses right I know that you know some of the cartels have been using their money to buy legitimate businesses just like you were saying exactly and for example someone working on the lobby of that you know that hotel or or someone cleaning in that hotel it’s a decent person like making a life with a salary and that person might have no idea that the money is really coming originally from the drug cartels and that’s why it’s so hard to trace you know I I I acknowledge that that it’s hard for the authorities of you know both countries to trace this money but it’s also true and I think my my investigation proves it that there is way more account ability to be held um because the US for example went you know they they detained henard gar Luna he went on trial in New York he’s not convicted and he was sentenced a few weeks ago to 38 years in prison all of this is going to happen but at the same time we don’t have a single person from the United States responsible of providing all this money and all this information and all this trust to this man for more than a decade that he was you know the strong M of the security in Mexico while the US was you know keeping him powerful and giving him Awards and giving him money and giving him information so there’s no proof that anyone knew he was corrupt well what it’s it’s true is that I have been digging enough to know that there was more information about him than the one that we saw on the trial so we we know because I have been interviewing you know members of the Secretary of State and former members of the DEA and I was told by then there are more records than the records that were legally able to present during the trial by the prosecutors so we know and I have been reporting on this that there were some tapes of him being corrupt there was some information that the US knew but didn’t con consider it confirmed and it was some information that was held by the DEA and the the the US ambassador to Mexico was never informed so how much of that is intentionality or how much of that is that some of the material that they have was not let’s say legally obtained or usable for a prosecutor’s office or also how much is that he was useful he was useful for a long time and this is important because it’s not just the case of henaro Garcia Luna he’s a case study for something that is been happening around which just had recently also in New York the conviction of Juan Orlando Hernandez which is the former president of Honduras and Juan Orlando Hernandez well he was some people within the US government were thinking that um he was corrupt his brother was corrupt they were getting money from the cartels again the inala cartel he was in Washington being photographed with Donald Trump when he was president and people were saying um oh he is a strong man and he’s a Ally in Honduras so it’s not it’s not about one Administration or one party leading the US it’s more about the way that these security agencies work in the United States and how sometimes they withheld information from one agency to the other agency or they withheld information from the US ambassador to any country where they are during the trial of Garcia Luna we had uh a testimony of the US ambassador and he was pretty much convinced saying I didn’t know anything and then I interviewed someone from his team and he said he didn’t knew anything indeed because the DEA knew but the DEA didn’t tell the Ambassador so it’s like a crazy movie right like that you have a US ambassador in a Latin American country clueless about someone that he’s meeting and the DA has the information about this person and the da is not telling the Ambassador it looks like a movie but is reality yeah I’m watching a TV show on Netflix right now called the Ambassador and it’s reminded me of all of this [Music] you you’ve said that the overall that the War on Drugs was a complete failure what are your thoughts on the opposite approach taken by Amo and what are some alternative strategies that uh that the US should use in Latin American countries to consider reducing the harm and the cause of drugs well you know with uh with amlo and now with the current Mexican president Claudia sh shoom right yeah Claudia Shimon I think there is a change in the in the public agenda the public speech but I don’t see that much a difference in reality so what they have been saying oh this is not a war anymore and they have um the the Lopez orador administration had this catchy phrase saying in Spanish abos noas so they Wass not no bullets but if you see the numbers you know the the the Lopez sador Administration end up with the most the highest number of people killed in the recent history of Mexico so it’s not true that this public agenda of let’s be more comprehensive or let’s go to the root causing roots are it’s going to make a huge difference what they they still were militarizing the country more than ever before they were still having like a large majority of the soldiers of the country out on the streets they were still devoting a lot of money for weapons a lot of money for putting soldiers out there in every single town and we still have hundreds of thousands of dollars that are laundered every day we saw the fentel rising as the mega business and we have seen the increasing numbers of victims of overdoses in the United States so it’s important to be careful that one thing is what the politicians say and another thing is what they do because if you see I just wrote a recent article about the quote unquote new strategy from the new Mexican president Claudia Shambo he just she just you know took office on October 1st and she a few days after she took office she she did um a a daily conference in the morning and she said oh this is my new strategy so I did I had some fun analyzing the strategy and comparing the strategy to the the strategy that was presented in 2006 with the water when the water on drugs was declared and I found literally copy paste phrases from one to the other one like the using of the same exact terms the using of the same EXA exact approaches um saying that they’re they’re going to the roots they are attack they’re going to attack the causes they are going to provide people money to people living in poverty so they don’t need to work for the Naros they can work on other things and they will create a strategy has a lot of gathering intelligence and they will go so a lot of the things that they’re saying now like oh this is our unique innovative approach this is what we’re going to be doing now are things that we have been listening to since 2006 so I think again going to the beginning of this conversation that’s why investigative journalism matters because you go beyond the headline and you go beyond what any politician is saying and you say it’s not again it’s not about whose party is leading is about what are the things that they say they because I think what when you go bipartisan in the case of the United States or you don’t really have a political agenda to defend one party of the other party if you’re just focusing on what they’re doing or what they’re going to say they’re doing you can see the similarities so whatever they say the the thing is that what are the approaches that they’re taking and what are the results that they are having and so far even with Democrats or Republicans in the United States are here even with the right or the left they have really similar approaches and they have really similar bad results so I think it’s more important to do the analysis in that way more than to say you know is this Administration over dis Administration I like that we don’t just do the film making we do everything we’ve taken a case study of over 30 projects that we’ve done over the past 15 years and we put together what we believe is the most effective and efficient content funnel for Brands they need content on a daily basis they need to be talking to authentic and users we want your team to bring its most challenging problems and allow us and our team to apply our proven methods to your brand to take it to another [Music] level based on your extensive work in investigating the war on drugs and Luna story what do you you think would need to change on both Mexico and US approach when the issue when the issue with drug trafficking and Corruption law enforcement like how can we fix it in your opinion well that’s a million little question yes I’m glad that I’m not a a politician or a policy maker and I don’t really need to resolve what to be done and then my work is more like investigating what they do what is not working or what is working but something I have seen um you know my extensive working on the ground is that the availability of weapons it’s it’s something that is really damaging we have seen that in the United States with you know drug related and non- drug related crime from mass shootings affecting kids in our elementary schools to you know to to how violent some some US cities are are still to day and in the case of Mexico 90% of the weapons used to that are used every day to kill people in Mexico are coming from the United States so there there are smuggle relative relatively easy through the border and they are feeding a huge market and again talking about who are the winners um I will say if you if if you’re in in the business of selling weapons and you have a war um down your Southern border you’re going to sell a lot of weapons and that’s what’s been happening so me Mexico has been both Mexico and the United States have been doing a poor job trying to control the flow of those weapons and something else I have seen is they have been doing both countries a poor job really traing the Dirty Money dirty money coming into formal economy as we talk with your example of the hotel uh or my Takia or tracing the money that goes to pay politicians or pay bribes because if you don’t trace that money then that the business keeps going you know something that I think the authorities have been doing for many years that is obviously not working is to go over after these big names and every time they have like a big fish they do a press conference and they’re so happy and they congratulate themselves but then what happens the next day every time that you cat a a drug lord and I’m not saying let them free but every time you catch a a drug lord you should wonder what happens the next day and the next day what happens is you have a new leader it’s not that oh my God El Chapo was arrested there that’s the end of the C cartel or elaya samb was arrested in July of this year oh my God there is no more Fenton coming from the c c cartel to the United States that’s not true because it’s again such a profitable business that has so many people involved so I think that the approach from authorities of going over H after this big fishes and not really focusing on the operation the money laundering the weapon that are available for them and also going after the you know the clients the ultimate clients in the United States who is really Distributing the drugs to the final customer I think that appro that approach more aggressively we’ll have and we have seen in those cases when they have been doing it better and more results than going after just after the big names how about newly you know president-elect Trump and how do you think will his relationship with Claudia Shin bom would affect the war on drugs and potential traffic that’s coming from the borders well we will see you know recently when we learned that the Secretary of estate of the United States will be Marco ruio who is another person that has been like pretty hard on the public speech with around you know the cartels and corruption in Mexico Etc I think if we we believe what they have said so far it’s going to be a pretty tense uh relationship but it is true that Claudia Shane bound is a protege of uh Lopez orador and Lopez orador relationship with Trump was pretty good you know they didn’t have major problems so we will see it’s a little too soon but if you believe all the things that Trump said during the during during the campaign it it’s expected to be hard for Mexico I would say yeah he um you know they just newly appointed the borders are Tom homman Tom homman who has a history with the director of is at one point also former Bard agent uh you know he’s already publicly stated they’re going to they’re going to be very harsh punishments on uh illegal immigration but also he he made a comment towards the cartel and so I’m interested in seeing what that looks like uh from from where you’re at what does it feel knowing that president-elect Trump is going to be in office is there is there any kind of feeling that’s happening kind of a buzz is it a negative or a positive well I think it’s is if again if we believe what he has said during the campaign uh the relations will be really tense um we should expect of course less money going to Mexico to help a more a demand of Mexico but on the other hand I also see Mexico saying that the US needs to be held accountable for the things that are the US responsibility like for example the flow of weapons or the demand of the drugs so the what is unfortunate about this is if we take into account what happened during the first Trump Administration we will see less cooporation and less flow of information and even with the risk of having someone like henaro Garcia Luna that can you know be you using that information in a bad way I think drugs is a transnational business so you need a transnational strategy so if you have two administrations that are like forcing their own narrative really protective both of them really talking a lot about their own countries and you don’t see a joint strategy that’s really not helping because they the narcos are thinking transnational and they’re working translation so I think hopefully you know even in an Administration that is so confrontational in the public agenda as we have seen with the Trump Administration first during his first term and now during the campaign at some point they need to work together because there is no way there is no way to achieve something important if they don’t have some flow of information for example because again it’s not that you have a Mexican Narco that is just working in Mexico and everything happens in Mexico because that Mexican Narco doesn’t care about political agenda they have their client in Chicago and they’re speaking all the time and the client in Chicago needs the provider in Mexico so they’re still working together even whoever wins the Mexican presidency or the US Presidency o Well ma’am honestly I don’t want to take the rest of your time I really appreciate it um I’m excited to dig into a lot more of your work again I it’s an honor to have you here some of your status as a journalist and you know hopefully we can connect in the future more yeah thank you so much for having me and thank you for keep talking about these issues because our issues affecting like everyday people Beyond politics thank you for listening to Borderland and Ironclad original don’t forget to share and like all the social media things you need to do but also if you have any questions or if you have someone in particular you’d like for me to interview please put that in the comments we’ll try and cater to that as soon as possible let us know [Music]
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