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so you ran om before and you don’t have to comment on this it sounds like you are very likely to run om again tell us what om is for those who aren’t from Washington what it does and and what you would do with it so OMB is the nerve center of the federal government particularly the executive branch so it has the ability to turn on and off any spending within the Office of Management budget Office of Management and budget has the ability to turn off the spending that’s going on at the agencies it has all the regulations coming through it to assess whether it’s good or bad or too expensive or could be done a different way or what does the president think and then all of government execution so anytime you have cabinet executive branches conflicting with each other or working together on something for instance you know the wall president wanted to fund the wall we at om gave him a plan to be able to go and fund the wall through that was at the Department of Defense and to use that because Congress wouldn’t give him the ordinary money at the Department of Homeland Security so it really is Presidents use om to tame the bureaucracy the administrative state [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] it was really pioneered Honestly by FDR uh and then President Nixon also was really learning from FDR on how to use it to tame the the bureaucracy and we would have seen that did he create the office Roosevelt the the office was formerly the Bureau of the budget for last 100 years right and then Nixon renames it Office of Management and budget and uh it becomes kind of more of a statutory thing reporting directly to the president no longer within Treasury and so since then uh you’ve had it uh still there still really important viewed by the country largely as a a budget cutting uh exercise but it is it it is the president’s most important tool to dealing with the bureaucracy administrative State and you know the nice thing about President Trump is he knows that and he knows how to use it effectively so you you can’t get any of your domestic policy done without om it sounds like no you you will be in a situation where you will have at best really awesome cabinet secretaries who are dealing on sitting on top of massive bureaucracies that largely don’t do what they tell them to do and you have to have statutory tools at your disposal that force that bureaucracy from the White House to get in line and that is really the main uh thing that om can accomplish in addition to what everyone would think of from a budget office which is yeah you cut spending you figure out how to deal with your fiscal finances and all of that you’re making me anxious I mean I can’t handle a disobedient dog I can’t imagine what a disobedient Federal agency looks like how how resistant are they to democracy they’re incredibly uh resistant I mean think about uh Ukraine and the president in that first term wanted to cut off funding for Ukraine why because it’s a corrupt country and we didn’t know how it was going to be spent it’s totally normal policy process to go through that the people lost their minds about but the bureaucracy was literally just ignoring it and and quite frankly his political appointees like John Bolton were ignoring him as well and what we then did at om was I had been personally told like you know I want the money cut off until we can figure out where it’s going and we cut the money off and and and it it was like all hell broke loose within the bureaucracy we got impeached yeah and so like yeah and so you have the ability at that point to come bring them to come to heal and to do what the president has been telling them to do and we can do that in foreign a we can do that all sorts of places it’s kind of crazy if I mean everything you’re saying I’m familiar with but if you think about it that’s the end of democracy because the only Authority in the executive branch comes from the president and the vice president also elected um but it comes from voters through as expressed through elections so bureaucrats and the federal agency appointees in the federal agency have no authority to act independently that I’m under our constitution do they no and this is really the left has innovated over a hundred years to create this fourth branch of an administrative State I you and I might call it the regime this administrative state that is totally unaccountable to a president that let it move in the direction that it has been going but the president is accountable to voters so are members of Congress and um the system is designed that way that’s why we say it’s a democracy or constitutional republic because the voters convey bestow the authority on their leaders and so this seems not only illegal their behavior but unconstitutional I mean at the most basic level unconstitutional no totally unconstitutional if you would have seen woodro Wilson Beman our constitutional system he would have wanted Constitutional Amendments the left stopped talking about Constitutional Amendments because they innovated to this new fourth branch which is totally different than anything the founders would have ever understood the the notion of independent agencies that think of of and and Congress has designed them to be divorced from the president but even the notion of like um this is this is we’re we’re supposed to be technocrats and experts and we don’t have to listen to what you what you say we work for and I caught this Tucker uh people would say well we we work for the office of the president huh what what is that that it’s a way and where does it get its Authority they get their Authority they they have essentially taken Authority they have no legitimate Authority they have no legitimate Authority in the Constitution but they are part of this this fourth branch that I still believe reports in in large measure to Congressional leadership and and in the K Street interest right you have very powerful interests that direct them to keep going in the direction that they want them to go it’s why these bills are written in such a way that they are uh anything you could read anything in into them right when when Nancy Peli says we’re going to find out what the bill says she wasn’t actually being inaccurate that’s their strategy they pass bills and then they let the experts fill them in but over the phone they put massive pressure on them to go along with their their directions and their ends and lo and behold you get conservatives Republicans that take office and then you find that it’s incredibly difficult to wield power to get them to get deal with all of that muscle memory to get them to do what you want and so you got to have statutory Authority that a president kind of steps in and says I am fully aware of where I sit in the Constitution I am fully aware of the tools at my disposal and I’m going to use them on behalf of the American people because I just want a massive agenda setting election and I’m going to go do what I said I would do that’s democracy correct that is democracy that is not oligarchy and when they say we’re going to preserve democracy we know that they have been meaning all they they want to do is preserve their kind of amorphous oligarchy administrative deep State I I don’t think that’s an overstatement at all I mean I just think I don’t even see the kind of argument against what you just said so let’s just um if you don’t mind walking us through what happened in the example that you gave Ukraine so you just said the president comes into office in 2017 and says why are we sending all this money to Ukraine where’s it going there’s no audit we don’t know it’s the most corrupt country in Europe one of the most corrupt in the world maybe we should find out we don’t know okay we’re cutting off to we know I think that’s what you said MH the agencies like no we’re going to continue to fund Ukraine how do they do that they ignore the president and they’re and and and officials ignore the president and I think one of the things you’ll see in this this next Trump term is policy officials his political appointees that are not looking to get out of what he has clearly told them to do right so let’s let’s assume that issue is solved but at the bureaucratic level the issue I I think what you’re saying is let’s assume that he appoints people who agree with him and will do what he asks correct okay so for instance my staff uh is was part of what we call the policy process right where you would go and you defend the and you would articulate what you’re trying to accomplish and we had put the hold on the the Ukraine funding and my guy goes to the the all of these meetings and he’s like literally the only one in the room that wants to do what the president has asked him to do everyone’s kind of just ganging up on them and that is think of that often for all of our political pointies they are surrounded by people that have no idea about what the reasons in the agenda that the president has been put in office and they’re just bombarded with reasons of how can you do this what are you thinking uh did you know that this is you can’t do this most of the time that’s not true and so you have to cut through all of that um and to have the courage of your convictions and quite frankly Tucker the knowhow to know to have read the law to get in the granular details yourselves to not be staffed by your your your the people working for you you this notion that you can just come in and preside is not true you you have to you have to be in the weeds and to drive these agencies to be able to fix where we have you know the the undergrowth and the muscle memory that we’ve had for decades so why can’t you just so if the president says again to refer to your example um I don’t think we should be funding Ukraine I’m elected we’re going to cut this off if Congress wants to fund Ukraine they can go ahead and do that but the agencies are not going to fund Ukraine so why wouldn’t you just fire the people who disobey who who try to subvert democracy you’ve got to know how to fire them and there are tools to do that and the president was was innovating in that space himself with what’s called schedule F uh of essentially saying if you work for me and your policy a career official think your attorneys who are writing regulations then we’re going to create a new classification for you and you are you are going to be what most of the country is which is at will employee uh that’s where we were headed but there was also ways that why I don’t understand a system where a president any President Obama Biden Donald Trump comes in and doesn’t have control of the executive branch because constitutionally he does have so so like how come you can’t fire them why is it just not as simple as saying you’re fired it should be and this is one of the the the mountains of the administrative State you know this is this is how they have built their their their institution by essentially having uh a it be incredibly difficult to hire and fire employees and so I’ll give another example when the president decided to take money from defense to build the wall we had clear legal grounds to do it that Congress had given us they it’s called transfer Authority and I told this to the hill and obviously this was controversial it shouldn’t have been controversial Congress had given us very clear transfer Authority I must have had at least three times someone relitigate that decision from the career staff who work at OMB are you sure are you sure I think we should oppose I think this CU guys the decision has been made execute the decision and you see that everywhere right and and if you don’t if you don’t drive it you’re going to get better you’re you’re not going to be able to uh accomplish what the president needs you to accomplish how about if you were just to start the meeting with any okay this is how democracy works the people elect a leader he carries out their will anyone standing in the way of that is subverting democracy we will not allow that anyone who does that is fired instantly could you do that and just say you’re fired for unconstitutional Behavior you can do that increasingly when you move toward a schedule F system and and there are other tools in the toolbx to but under the current system what would happen if you tried that if you lawsuit lawsuit lawsuits yeah but if you fire them all look you’ve got a lot of tools on the table and it’s just so infuriating it look it is the one of the most infuriating things that you could possibly imagine but I think that that the good news and this is I think the good news not just in hiring firing the good news at large is that most of the time they have been able to get as far as they can because of just it is the way it is it’s precedent and laws that are not drafted precisely but per purposely vague and as a result we can then do it in reverse you can have a president who can steps in and says you know what there’s no constitutional amendment for me to take control of the administrative state I’m going to do in Reverse everything that you have done and I think that is the great hope what you need is people who are able to absorb uh political heat they don’t have a fear of conflict they can execute under withering enemy fire they are up to speed and they No Nonsense in their own ability to know what must be done and they are unbelievably committed to the president and his agenda and believe and truly believe in their bones that they’re not there for their own agenda they’re there for what president Trump was elected to do and so his commander’s intent matters a great deal and that’s the The View that I always had Tucker is how do I get in the mind of the president to Think Through what is he trying to accomplish and then I’m going to go figure out how to do it yeah because once again he is the authority and no one else does cuz only he was elected and I just I’m fixated on this question of like where do career bureaucrats think they derive the authority to make these decisions like who made them God I think it’s very uh no one ever asked that question in DC you’re considered a freak if you do but I think it’s a key question um so one of the problems that you had last time was the media MH explain how that works how the media Works in conjunction with the permanent State and the Congress to thwart the president well I think number one they are always fra framing narratives and messages that both are lies and are also designed to destabilize the Republicans in control who want to be for however that narrative is Being Framed you used one already with democracy right uh if you’re not aware that when they say democracy they mean oligarchy you’re like I don’t want to be anti-democratic that’s the whole point is preserving democracy it’s what we just did and you know if you if you have a plan to deal with the administrative State and then they frame it as authoritarian you you you don’t want to cast of your own Ally saying I don’t want to be anti-authoritarian we saw this in Co right where we if they deci if they Define something as anti-science or anti-public health it causes our political appointees to just completely Wilt right and so that’s I think the beauty of President Trump is he’s kind of immune to these these media generated narratives that conflict with common sense reality that I think is the main one because that’s that is their that is controlling the skies from a military standpoint right like that is their ability to to to shape the conversation in such a way that makes it very hard number two uh they’re obviously working in conjunction with with leakers and uh and individuals with knoow to know you know when a hold has been put put on Ukraine uh to be able to send that and have it explode in the public Arena and so you have to you have to be prevent leaks you have to uh govern well from the get-go to be able to manage all of that as best you possibly can um and but I I also think there’s an opportunity there because they will they will they will report on conflict they will report on confrontation and when you when they do that you can get the word out as to what you’re doing uh at least you can get the word out on on shows like this and in the the new and developing ecosystem well that’s kind of it right there I mean that was the basis of my question I do think things have changed right I mean if you still care what the New York Times or Washington Post say or tend toan at NBC news like I hope you’re not working there right right do you think anybody still cares what they think no I I the the the whole ball game has shifted right like I don’t even know why you would do many of these interviews uh at all because if you can’t get you know you’ve got to be able to get your words out without just complete combativeness um and the I think the best example is remember the the Caitlyn Collins interview with President Trump I mean it’s just constant interrupting um and uh misuse of you know lies actually right and so like that’s the kind of thing that you’re up against um but you can shape them you can uh particularly the print media and I think there are you know I think it’s important uh to at least attempt to do that um but you have to make the measure of the person that you’re dealing with and sometimes they’re just you know they’re they’re they’re complete activists themselves do you remember when Democrats used to refer to abortion as something that should be safe legal and rare well they’ve changed their view on that it went from a right to a Sacrament this isn’t the pro-choice movement you may remember from 30 years ago this is something much darker and that’s why we have joined forces with pre-born they’re a sponsor of the show and of our speaking tour to do something about it’s the largest pro-life organization in the United States and they are doing what they should do which is speaking up against this atrocity killing babies after birth no one seems to have The Bravery to call that wrong which it is but pre-born is calling it out their networks of clinics are positioned in the highest abortion areas in the the country and they’ve rescued 300,000 babies when a woman considering an abortion searches to end her baby’s life pre-born is there the power of ultrasound combined with the love of God doubles the baby’s chance of being born a single ultrasound cost 28 bucks five ultrasounds are 140 bucks giving women the information they need to make the decision that many of them actually want to make to have a baby any gift will help and all gifts are tax deductible to donate secur secely go to pre-born dcom Tucker or call pound 250 on your phone and when asked use the word baby it does seem I’m going to ask you about the Intel agencies it does seem like one of the main vectors of control um is briefings and the number of people I’ve spoken to Congress executive branch like oh no no no if you only got the briefing I think I live there too long I just don’t believe the briefing you know maybe sometimes they’re accurate sometimes they’re not but they’re almost always designed to control the person being briefed did you see that I did and I’ve very rarely ever learned anything particularly interesting inef is that true yeah they didn’t tell you who killed Kennedy huh they did not right and so you know I think I came away with the similar skepticism of these briefings and the information and the over classification in the system yes uh they classify everything you’re re reading this thing you’re like you realize that’s all just normal stuff that’s out in a congressional research service on Twitter so and so like uh so I think that’s a huge thing that we’ve got to fix you know over classification and system but I think they they both create this environment where it’s very exclusive they are trying to bring you into their kind of Priestly role so that no I I saw the briefing if you had seen the briefing you you would you would be okay with us not having a fisa warrant requirement exactly right you would be okay with us just another 100 bill billion dollar for Ukraine just we we can’t have Ukraine fall that none of it is is is is is rigorous analysis and honestly I think that’s the biggest thing that I was uh boning is the extent to which rigorous analysis that I thought would be there wasn’t there what do you mean by rigorous analysis uh I don’t expect people to agree with me constantly I want to I want to I want well prepared memos that make that have a conviction to them and then support them it’s not these are not like I’m going to plant the flag yeah and then we can Divi we can de see okay who’s right who’s that who has better supporting no no it’s like I’m going to give a blob an exercise to report on something and the blob is going to kind of like all uh it’s not a Google spreadsheet but it’s going to all be a you know an interactive Google spreadsheet to just spit out something that is a consensus document and you’re reading this thing you’re like this makes no real claims other than to affirm The Narrative that we just talked about right so what’s the point other than to preserve the status quo at that point the point is just to know what the intelligence Community is writing on because you’re not going to learn anything from it I talked to someone recently um in the last few days who works in the Intel Community the IC um who was saying that you can see people who come to Washington for the first time in high positions and other Branch before before and after their briefings and they’re like different people and they they fall for it like all of them fall for it you know now we’re going to tell you all the things you wondered about we’re going to tell you the truth about them presidents especially Trump seems as you said immune from this and he’s done it before but this person said you should see how much they change like deep inside once we lay you know lay the on them they just they’re not the same have you noticed that oh I seen it you know I think part of the problem and this is endemic of not just IC but our we don’t read enough in general we don’t have our own convictions we don’t search for understanding ourselves and so you have people go in and they’re like I’m kind I kind of need this career staff to tell me what to think I don’t want to look stupid right and so that has killed us on our side of the aisle the conservative side to say we don’t have people that are driving policy and bringing their own opinions and their own history and so they they are susceptible to feeling like they and they still they still believe that these people have an authoritative stance on things and they don’t have enough skepticism that in fact you know there’s no the emperor has no clothes right and and then that is the and you’ve got to bring that perspective they’re weak inside is what you’re saying a lot of these people I do think that’s I do think that’s the case you know and and I you know from the standpoint of the I see the other thing that they would do do is they they would keep you from being briefed right the briefing we’ve already discussed of what the brief uh is and sometimes like what president Trump is saying I’m not going to necessarily get the brief right but I would find that I wasn’t read into certain things until they needed my signature so once they needed some reason to get my signature then all of a sudden I get this brief right and it was that’s not the way it should be if you’re trying to provide oversight and accountability you need you don’t know what you don’t know and so you have to be able to uh be have the the whole entire uh a landscape of things that you could oh that that’s interesting that we we should do something president Trump wouldn’t like that and I find that was very restrictive unless they needed me and so I basically said look you I’m not going to you not getting my signature unless you get me briefed up and I want I want to access to all of these things that I need to be able to provide oversight for the federal government and one of the things that we did Tucker is that since the the rise of om that ability to turn funding on and off had always been done by a career individual not a political appointee and so we changed that and it was like the the it was like the the world was going to end they said look you’re going to destroy the agency you can’t you can’t handle the bandwidth can’t handle the bandw the chaos will be will be unmatched and we changed it and next thing you know everything’s flowing across our desk oh that’s interesting we’re not doing that you know like it was just amazing and if you don’t know and have that thesis that says this is what must be done you could be the most incredible conservative in the world you could be the most policy consistent person with the president but you don’t know how to put your hand in the glove and and use that agency for the president’s behalf the president’s not going to be able to be well served at that agency I saw um David Ignatius who was a longtime water carrier for the CIA I don’t know if they’re paying him but they should be because he does their bidding and has for decades at the Washington Post and I heard him saying yesterday that we can’t have Tulsi gabard at dni Director of National Intelligence because it will cause quote chaos because the Intel Community doesn’t like her and basically he’s making the argument that we we should not have cilian control these agencies because the agencies won’t like it just say it that’s what you really mean well I think that’s basically what he’s saying so that’s um again that’s dictatorship is what he’s describing but um he used chaos as kind of the threat mhm okay but you’ve been there if you really did everything that was needed in order to root out the corruption that defines our government you would cause some chaos you would wouldn’t you you it will certainly read on the papers like K right that’s good fair you know as to what’s what what just is normal good government behind the scenes managing pushing pushing through whatever uh I think it can be done very uh uh wisely and and and done in a way that um you know anyone who had a bird’s eye view into that would be able to say that’s exactly what we put this Administration into office but yeah you’re going to have to kick over people’s paradigms you’re going to have to kick over people’s turfs you’re going to have to change people’s understanding of things that they have invested their whole life into a view of the world and none of this is their views of the world aren’t isn’t rooted in the Constitution and some T in some cases any you know version of The Facts uh but you’re going to that’s going to cause a lot of turmoil within these bureaucracies and you got to fight through it and then they’re going to Overlay the aspect of oh my gosh you guys are racists you know you guys don’t care about us as people you know you’re going to have to deal with that too right um they are you know one of the arguments that they’re using in the press against me right now is they say uh he he he called for trauma within the bureaucracies yeah I called for trauma within the bureaucracies The Bu bureaucracies hate the American people they want to put a 707 year old and did 77y Old Navy veteran in jail for 18 months for building four ponds on his Ranch to fight wildfires that’s not the Department of Justice that’s the EPA you go every agency and it’s not just big government it’s weaponized against the country of course and so yeah we we I would want to provide trauma against that bureaucracy in a way that frees the American people from the people that have assumed the the type of power that the Constitution and no law no public debate ever gave them does that mean we dislike everyone working at federal agencies and want them to have a bad life no of course there’s a lot of people there who have come to serve and and and do great public service and we want to affirm that and we want to turn over the bureaucracies that are traumatizing the American people yeah and the outcomes are terrible and they’re terrible because it’s corrupt that’s why it doesn’t change and the DC Metro area is the richest in the country and they don’t make anything so it’s just like that’s the most obvious marker for corruption I can imagine um tell us about what congressional um information hearings are going to look like for Trump’s appointees they’re going to be um they’re going to be exhilarating if you have the right approach to them uh but they’ll you know they’re going to come out everything we’ve got right you know um or everything they’ve got with a with what they are able to uh put someone in the dock and that individual is going to have to face the balance of uh wanting to defend everything that they’ have done u in life life and belief and at the same time you’re the the thing that’s a little hard about is you’re you’re no longer yourself right you you are yourself but you are also going to do a job for a person so what I think about a particular issue doesn’t mean as much as what the president thinks something like like that and so it is is a different thing than than coming on and doing an interview about what your viewpoints on on a particular no that’s that’s exactly it’s not it’s not a cable news head right no so uh but I I I think look I have I’ve had experience you know Bernie Sanders went after me uh very very hard in my first uh confirmation hearing as Deputy o andb for essentially believing in John 3:16 um and it was it it was wait he he hit you he attacked you on the base of your Rel he he said I was a a bigot and I should not serve in the federal government because of my Christian faith and believing something that essentially comes down to what’s articulated at sports games with John 316 and that was most who’s who’s the bigot who is the biggot right that’s a per the perfect question goes back that most nominees will not go through what I went through but I will tell them you will get through it you will get to the other side and it will be the most freeing thing in the world you will come at through the end of a process like that and you will I find it to be at that point exhilarating because It prepares you to take on enemy fire what are they going to what are you afraid of been calling you bigot racist Christian nationalist authoritarian if you if you are if you are not afraid of these attacks and you give them no Credence no credibility then you can you will be able to get through these things you will be able to uh convince enough senators and you’ll be able to serve and you’ll be served more effectively but but um the bright lights and will be on in these confirmation hearings so how much of it is like theatrical and how much of it is real like so you go into a hearing like that your confirmation hearing um do you know the outcome at the beginning or do you think that votes really change based on the testimony of nominees uh I don’t think most votes change at all I think that you know you may have one or two anomaly sen Senators that are trying to you know have you answered something to their satisfaction or are they’re trying to get a feel for for you that they haven’t otherwise but I think increasingly in the in our the world that we live in the Democrats are voting no and it’s a matter of making sure you’ve convinced and you’ve brought in you get I mean what’s interesting I get no Democrat votes but the Republicans are always voting for The W I mean Lindsey Graham will vote for any Democrat sorry I’m not going to put you in an uncomfortable situation but there are plenty of Republican Senators who are liberal Democrats effectively and they vote for all kinds of nominees but you don’t see that on the other side you never see that on the other side and they they hav an appre appreciation that they have to attack our people at every level because they know that every level is the stepping stone for the next level exactly right so they don’t make it say oh this is just like the under secret yeah exactly you know they no we’re we’re opposed to that that guy will be secretary someday correct well you’re I guess a perfect example aren’t you well certainly the first term right I I’d become deputy and next thing you know U mix goes to the chief of staff and so I have an opportunity to serve as deput as director and so um that is uh uh they understand government they understand the career path that um is is opening for people and they when they sense it’s not always the case but when they sense that this is a committed conservative it’s a partisan line down the road for 35 years Liberty Safe has been the number one manufacturer of safes made in this country americanmade from start to finish they make high 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protected isn’t it the role of Republican leaders particularly now since Trump won the majority the popular vote overwhelming majority of electoral votes House and Senate are Republican majority of State houses majority of governs that’s a mandate so that means that Republican leaders the two head guys in the House and Senate should be helping are they going to I have high hopes that they that that people are seeing what Trump just accomplished and are going to be pulling the ores to get things done as soon as possible and I think the jury is out right I I think um I I want to see and I’m hoping to see people looking for ways to move these appointees through the process um and sounds like they’re trying to do that uh we’ll see but you know we we have to do things not based on how it has been done recently like this whole notion of the recess appointments right you have some people out there who’s saying this is unconstitutional it’s not the way it was meant to be it’s totally wrong right it it is a specific provision in the Constitution to be able to allow a president if he does if he got has to stand up in administration quickly and he’s dealing with a senate that won’t move quickly enough to be able to install his people so that he can actually function as a government right that it’s specifically mapped out and yet you have so in the Constitution so by definition not unconstitutional fair fair so you yet you have Republicans one of them in particular like Ed wheen right now who’s attacking Trump for even mentioning who’s Ed wheelen uh he he writes one he’s one of the main kind of uh legal luminaries on the right and and uh uh ethics and public policy are one of those think tanks and he’s out there opposing the whole notion of recess appointments uh for for for whatever reason I don’t know other than he thinks unseemly and not the way the found okay so don’t I mean this is a whole separate question and it’s a broad brush but in general conservative think tanks with some exceptions are not conservative their tools of the left and sort of repositories of broke down people with no other job prospects why would anyone pay attention to them I think they should increasingly not be right yeah and by the way there are some good ones and I you know have I love Kevin Roberts at Heritage and and there are good people in some tanks for sure but in general it’s like the world of Jonah Goldberg it’s like who cares what you think it they only matter to the extent that people in the arena listen to them and that is increasingly are not being listened to and I think that’s part of one of the reasons why they’re so up in arms about it right I mean that’s National Review itself is that’s phenomenal National Review that was a magazine in the 50s so and and I think that’s but my point is the extent to which people have opposed Trump and and and the America First agenda I think ultimately is a loss of power because they didn’t get to set the agenda they don’t get to be the traffic cop uh they don’t get to kind of say ah this is this offends my sensibility and more and no if if you have a radical constitutionalism and that’s really what I’ve been calling for given this crazy unconstitutional situation that we’re finding ourselves in if you have a radical constitutionalism it’s going to be destabilizing you may find that you can use the James Madison could have put a whole lot more recess appointments in than you would have ever imagined but it’s also exhilarating and why if you’re trying to preserve the country would you make arguments against that why wouldn’t you making Arguments for us that’s one of the reasons we just put out a five-page paper we’ll put out a 40-page paper next as to this is the Constitutional grounds for recess appointments of we haven’t president Trump hasn’t decided to do it but if he does he will be in the same vein as our Founders it’s a little weird and again you haven’t well as of right now so it’s November 18th you’ve not been nominated no yeah I think you will be hope so uh but you haven’t been so I don’t want to put you in an awkward spot because if you were you’re going to have to deal with this but why would Mitch McConnell still this Senate leader of Republicans why would he say we’re not doing recess appointments again I I can’t haven’t spoken to Senator McConnell on it my guess is that the Senate is going to want to know the argument and the and and they probably have been told uh and may have been told and I’m going to just keep it as positive as possible that this is not inappropriate you can’t do it and I want to show them and know in fact you can uh it is entirely appropriate and to win the argument and then if you win the argument and then people are like no we don’t want to do this then it’s a different matter right it’s like uh it it just kind of reveals that they’re they’re not actually on board with those particular nominees going into office and that’s a different issue um so I I I think that we don’t know yet to whether will the Senate have an issue I mean to some extent the Senate knows it has an issue because they couldn’t move these nominees fast enough in the first term because the Democrats were filler bustering everyone right and so and by the way you know a lot of these hearings and you read the history books and people got approved by the senate in a day you know like the system wasn’t meant to be this slow and it has been bogged down and slowed down and we’ll see you know Senator th Majority Leader th th will have a chance to put his own imprint on the Senate and I want to see how he does yeah I’ve got you know high expectations low hopes hope I’m wrong um it’d be one thing if the outcome was positive if the country was thriving you know you say okay the system’s dysfunctional but you don’t really need a lot of change right now so that’s fine but the outcome is not positive at all it’s total Destruction of the country we grew up in so got to fix it why would you want to enter back into this well you know I I’ve always said the last four years I would never want to miss out on another chance to be at the president’s side I find in him to be someone who’s so uniquely situated for the moment and you go back and I’ve done some uh reading on this you go back and read some of the Federalist Papers and they actually designed the system for someone like him whose his his interests would align with the country’s interest to such an extent to which um he it actually works like separation of powers is meant to have strong opinionated convictional leadership that go as fast as they can and hard as they can in the direction and for the system to then have true separation of powers right uh an example of that is um is what he’s proposing on recess appointments if the Constitution allows you to do it why wouldn’t you do it if it’s in your interest and then let’s see what Congress does in response to that but that’s real separation of powers it’s not like this kind of fake for you know fourth Branch administrative state where none of it works it’s all kind of cartel behind the scene uh where all you get is kind of different parts of each of the branch uh coming together almost as a blob and I I I think he’s so unique in terms of being a historical transform transformative person that we can actually save the country and that’s really what it comes down to um the hour is late um it’s 11:59 it’s not too late but it’s really late and this isn’t an election where you can just have seesaws we’ll we’ll be up and you’ll be down no we we if we don’t win and and he’s won an electoral mandate now it’s time to actually execute if we if we don’t execute we may never have this chance again and so you have the president who’s ready to go now you need knowhow people who can do that and do it with the attacks that are coming and they will come right they they will come hardest at the people that they believe are the greatest threats and but but that’s what the president needs the president needs those types of people where he’s not going to be successful and the country won’t be saved and I just I think that it’s incumbent on those of us who have that skill set who have have had the the experiences we’ve had you know we’re put here for a reason we’re we’re here because we we’re God has given us a particular purpose for a particular time and it’s incumbent us to be responsible with those moments that we’re given so I don’t know what the future holds I don’t know if I serve or if I continue at my Center to to be championing the ideas that he’s working on I’m happy with both of those scenarios but it’s incumbent on us to to to to give everything we can to be successful in this moment because I don’t think we will get another Moment Like This And if if you doubt how serious the opposition is to the public not just to Trump but to the majority of the country that voted for Trump they’re trying to leave him with World War III on the way out y I can’t imagine a more desperate or evil thing for Tony blinkin who I think is desperate and evil my view um to do leave him with a war a lame duck president trying to start a war with the world’s largest nuclear power Russia what do you make of that uh it’s incredibly Insidious uh and then add to the fact that he can’t put two sentences together and he’s largely not in control of his own government and so you have almost an unelected president uh with individuals behind the scenes that are doing this um does it doesn’t surprise me though I mean these are the same people that um have weaponized the Department of Justice have the lawfare I have a colleague of Mine Jeff Clark who’s you know has they’re trying to disbar him because of the the care that he had on behalf of the president to deal with v voter integrity and election fraud after 2020 and so the system has thrown everything at the Warriors that are on the field you’re seeing that with Tulsi you’re seeing that with Matt Gates I mean why why is all of this stuff being thrown at him slanderously can I just say I thought I’m sorry to digress but since you mentioned Gates we don’t accuse look doj leaked that he was a child sex trafficker okay so at that point they have a moral I would say legal obligation to charge them for child sex trafficking and prove it in court and if they can’t shut the f up but they didn’t do that they leaked that Matt Gates a guy they didn’t like whose views were a threat to them is a child sex trafficker then they just let it hang in the air and all their repulsive little minions like Joe Scaro like he’s a child sex trafficker really you want to live in a world where the secret police can just slander you through the media like I I read in my Bible this morning war that you don’t believe something unless two or three people are witnesses and say and there is none of that in fact that’s Mosaic law right there and and there and in fact the the weaponized Department of Justice said we don’t have the proof to pursue these allegations I know and so then you read in the story but they accused him of it they they accuse it they they make the case the reported I said read it this morning they and then they say it should be known that Matt Gates denies that these allegations has occurred of of course he denies it because they’re not true and the Department of Justice there’s no accounting of the fact that these things have been proven not to be not to be true and yet people and there’s a tendency on our side and this is very TR troubling it’s not just the the the left which is kind of state regime propaganda there’s a tendency on our side to believe that if there’s smoke there must be fire why do we do that why why do we why does our side why does Republican congressmen Republican Senators believe that where there must be smoke there must be fire only because this person has been a confrontational courageous convictional leader um in in a in a true generational talent I might add so well that’s that what the last point is indisputable that’s just a fact I mean Gates is the most articulate member of Congress it’s like no it’s not even close right so they hate him for that because he’s a danger I my explanation of course I’ve noticed that Republicans believe most of what they’re Told part of it is I think there’s an IQ Gap from just being honest part of it is they believe in the system and Democrats just don’t believe in the system at all they don’t believe in any system that that curtails their power basically but Republicans really believe in it to their great credit and so they’re like well it’s the doj I mean it’s kind of corrupt on the margins you know what I mean there’s some bad apples but most of them are really great really why hav’t the great ones resigned right right I don’t I don’t think there’s any evidence are mostly great at all I think they’re really dangerous heavily armed do maybe that’s the answer I I I think that that is fundamentally it’s twofold I think the left is made up of of revolutionaries for sure right and they’re Marxist one if you’ve read witness you everyone knows that right like that that not a new phenomena it’s become militarized over and over this was written in like 1955 correct right so now now what that looks like is not someone who’s like a behind the-scenes spy now that looks like you know some of their members of Congress right like an AOC their their Marxist revolutionaries are voting in Congress so that’s their side and our side doesn’t really grapple with that we don’t make every decision realizing like that’s what they think and that’s what they’re doing so I’m not going to listen to what they just kind of chitchat conversation I’m going to to govern and make decisions based on what I know they are pursuing know your enemy secondly we do have trust in kind of the media and the the the institutions like Tony fou you can’t be lying right it can’t he can’t really he he he must not have been doing gain of function research if he said he wasn’t he’s Tony fouchy right like that’s what we were up against and and totally true and that is the wrong appro you got to have a skepticism to all of these people and and their institutions and their bureaucracies okay what needs to be done and just just I I’ll shut up I’ll stop with my stupid editorial comments you just go through the top three or four things that you think this incoming Administration which has a rare mandate should achieve in order I believe that the there’s a lot of policy issues Downstream the Border inflation Wars across the world all of them are Downstream of one reality and that is we don’t the American people currently are not in control of their government and the president hasn’t been either and so we have to solve that we have to solve the woke in the weaponized bureaucracy and and have the president take control of the executive branch so my belief for anyone who wants to listen is that you you have to the president has to move executively as fast and as aggressively as possible with a radical constitutional perspective to be able to dism that bureaucracy in their power centers and I think there are a couple of ways to do it number one is going after the whole notion of Independence there are no independent agencies Congress may have viewed them as such SEC or the FCC cfpb the whole alphabet soup but that is that is not something that the constitution understands so there may be different strategies with each one of them about how you dismantle them but as an Administration the whole notion of ANP P agcy should be thrown out particularly with the Department of Justice in which there’s literally no law all it is is precedent from the the Watergate era that the the attorney general and those lawyers don’t work for the president and well who do they work for they think that they work for themselves they think that they are so they have the power to kill people just because they awarded themselves that power they the power to kill people I mean they believe that they have the power for for um all of the the the prosecutions and that the president doesn’t get a say in any of that and that H we have to go at that as hard as we possibly can whether that’s the military we have a whole military industrial complex of generals and Tommy tuberville kind of exposed this this last year with a fight about life but it really became a fight about whether we have a essentially a military that is not subject to civilian leadership so you you can apply the concept of in of of destroying Independence at every agency I even saw it in in aspects of om with regard to who gets to make the decisions on on uh statistics right like there there are little pockets of Independence that have to be uh just you got we got to remove those right it’s they’re unconstitutional number two would you include the FED in that list so I I am not a huge fan of the FED I can’t um I can’t look at the Constitution and and the massive decades long decisions that theyve made totally undemocratic and and and see that that is a place where there deserves to be an exception for I don’t even understand who controls the FED I mean and where does their Authority come from God do they are they speaking directly to God like what what is this no because they’re wrong and they’ve been wrong you know for decades right right let’s go to zero interest rates for 11 years see what happens and see what happens so president Trump hasn’t run on that and so I’m not going to speak he but I’m just interested is you’ve looked into the question of what Authority does the Constitution bestow un to whom no and it give you an example if you go on T if you are watching news you’re going to have seen in the last two years ads saying oppose the fed’s uh regulations on Capital Bank Capital right well who are they supposed to call they’re not calling a congressman Congressman has no power the issue is like the call to action is against the fed well sorry you’re kind of out of luck in the what’s what’s the lever we would use to influence there is no lever right and and so they they have existed with this notion that they have this Priestly ability to make decisions and in fact I don’t actually think they’re that good at it I think people like President Trump are in fact better at it and there’s no reason that they should be uh exempt from the normal Democratic process and if if Congress wants to come along and pass rules that says you know this is how we want the money supply to go all of that is in their purview but I I I think you know this is not some exception to the rule doesn’t mean in any way that you know president Trump has any interest in doing anything in this area but I don’t think it I don’t think it’s the exception that Pro proves the rule on Independence being something that is important Downstream to the CDC the NIH I think everything that people like Bobby Kennedy have been running on and others is about no you’re not some Priestly role you are politicians yourself you just don’t have to face voters right so Independence is I think first and foremost number two bringing back the notion of impoundment and and this is something that of what of impowerment the ability to not spend money for 200 years presidents had the ability to not spend a congressional appropriation that has always been the Constitutional system it had been brought it had been a paradigm that had been brought from from the UK and how we understood the the constitutional principle is certainly power of the purse means that Congress gets to set the ceiling you can’t spend without a congressional appropriation but you weren’t ever meant to be forced to spend it and it has become a floor so 200 years presidents are using empowerment they get money for something President says I don’t think it’s a good idea or I certainly can do it better or I have events that are happening overseas that cause me not to want to spend on the gun booat when I want to get get some treaty done all manner of executive decision making that would be a part of that in two in in the 1970s at the lowest moment of the presidency Congress steps in and to some extent the courts and they they pass the the empowerment Control Act which was really the empowerment elimination act and in that from that moment they had destroyed separation of powers on spending on fiscal issues but it was beyond that it wasn’t just about dollars and sense it was about control of the bureaucracy so that law effectively meant the Executive Branch the president’s agencies have to spend every dollar they’re sent by the Congress correct and and and I believe as a budget guy that was the original sin on why we can’t do anything fiscally from that moment on it’s also why we get Omnibus bills because if I only need you to get my your signature and I lose all of my ability to throughout the rest of the fiscal year to push and pull and not spend and have make different decisions I just got to get your one signature so I’m going to put everything in that one bill right thousands of pages and I’m going to push it through at the most the hardest time for you politically you might have some diplomatic visit that you’re going on toally yeah totally and so empowerment is in vitally important not just to save the country fiscally it is vitally important to be able to rest control of the bureaucracy because when you combine Congress giving the agencies vast authority to interpret the laws that they passed overly broad make law essentially make law essentially that has no repercussions on the people who voted it right they don’t have to vote on what the right blend is for ethanol that’s right um and then you say that your funding is going for Congress and the president has no ability sorry Mr President you don’t have to get that’s illegal you can’t you can’t turn off my funding now Cong Imperial Congress still exist just a lot more subtle so that’s number two bringing back empowerment number three is is dramatically going at restoring at will employment as as far as you can a lot of ideas on the on the on the on the on the agenda but so all these companies are always telling you how much money they’re giving to charity oh we’re so charitable but what are the Charities they’re giving to these brands that you buy that you have in your house you don’t even want to know very often they’re Charities that don’t have the same value that your family has sometimes they’re Charities that don’t like your family at all but when you use Pure Talk which is a cell phone company a lot of us use you can be certain that your money is going to cherries that you yourself would give to veteran Le companies for example to date Pure Talk has gotten rid of $10 million in debt held by veterans they’ve spent tens of thousands more every month to help prevent veteran suicide they just give 50 Grand to Mike Row Works which gives scholarships to veteran learning the trades after they leave military service etc etc so you’ve seen companies once again we’re not going to name names budlight but that do business with lunatics again Charities that run contrary to your worldview that despise your worldview but with pure talk you don’t have to worry about that this is a company that supports the causes that you can support Pure Talk gives you the same great sell service that America’s most Dependable 5G networks provide for half the cost they also support small businesses with excellent and affordable business plans they are powering us here at TCN so we can vouch for it and they can probably save you money too find out go to Pur talk.com Tucker toay switch to a company that aligns with your values P talk when you sign up at Pur talk.com Tucker you get an additional 50% off your first month we recommend it can we just go back to empowerment really super quick so what was the idea during Watergate of forcing the president to spend all the money the Congress sends him like why would you want that you only want it from the standpoint of control if you want to be able to say you’re going to spend what I tell you you’re going to spend that it it is nothing more than an Institutional uh desire to force the president to spend an x amount of money but again it’s never just about that it’s always about where they have tried to innovated from really the Progressive Era like they wanted Congressional government that was the that was the the the title of woodro Wilson’s book he wanted a system where essentially the agencies largely worked out of the Congress or associated with congress not unlike what you would see in the House of Commons right where their cabinet lives in their house of Parliament and it’s largely you know the Monarch the executive uh over time becomes toothless that’s essentially what they have wanted and have pursued at every turn here and you saw that on steroids with them using uh the events of Watergate to prolongate new paradigms and ways of of binding the Constitutional system from working so everything post-watergate is largely you can just make an assumption it’s not the way it was meant to work and so you have our guys defending post-watergate paradigms um instead of trying to think through okay like let’s go back let’s go back to what the founders would have actually envisioned amazing um okay so to your third point Thank You For This by the way um so to your third Point um that the president has to be able to fire people who are subverting democracy um why can’t he how did federal bureaucrats wind up with a kind of super tenure where no matter what they do you can’t get rid of them like what I I don’t understand they work for the public right laws that have been passed perhaps not challenged the laws that have been passed that give them bargaining power uh that give them U certain processes that have to be followed before they can be dismissed but I think in that and has certainly made it very very hard hard to hire and fire the current system needs to be changed uh but it also can be used to deal with these same kind of actors if you’re willing to do it and um I don’t want to get into all of the tools that are available but they exist you know one of them is the you know the reduction Force I mean you you can and VC has talked about this I mean you can proceed on the basis of what is good for the E efficiency and the effectiveness of the agency to be able to dramatically lower um at a a macro level the size of the workforce um and that will give you certain legal abilities to begin to move people off of the payroll so there’s a lot of things are being creatively discussed in this space but it has to be front and center schedule F as president Trump has already run on U that seems to be like a day one thing he has already uh instituted in his first term we just didn’t get to get it across the Finish Line um it every agency has to go and categories how many of his employees are policy and therefore subject to atwi employment I I put 90% of OMB in that category because I wanted a it was true and B I wanted to set a high bar for the rest of my colleagues at agency heads that this should be viewed maximally you’re willing to fire your own staff which is another way of saying you’re willing to relinquish some power because Personnel Manpower is power and it’s always not just about firing although there certainly be Mass layoffs and firing particularly across some of the agencies that we don’t even think should exist but what I found was that you get better staff work when people are now in their mind realizing saying okay I’m not immune from all accountability and I would tell people you know You’ have to have these uh conference calls we’re in the middle of Co and explain you know what we’re trying to do and a lot of a lot of people were very upset like guys you we’re we’re Republicans we don’t believe in these in these you know um these laws that give you these protections that we think make you less good at your job of serving a particular president so it’s just on its face outrageous like everyone else in the country faces the visites of the job market I’ve been fired so many times with a lot of kids and I’m not whining but most people have been had moments like that it’s like oh wow I’m out of money why are the people that we pay with our tax dollars immune to the pressure that the rest of us feel it’s like so crazy does mean that you can’t tell your boss what you think like that’s the that’s the most crazy thing in the world right why like we what yeah you know I worked for some I’ve worked for some pretty authoritarian people by the way over the years and the last people I work for very nice to me I will say but like they had really strong views on a couple topics and I like kept my views on those to myself at dinner yeah they’re my bosses I mean I don’t really understand like what how does an entirely separate set of rules apply to our employees The public’s employees our housekeepers this is how I think of them they work for us and when they when your housekeeper works for you you get to fire steals from you you get to fire her correct yeah and there’s no other way to run any business any government but it’s like on what on what grounds do they get to be treated better than every other category of employee in the world yeah and they’re also some of the suckiest employees as the son of a federal employee I can tell you some of them are great most are not great subg great which is why we have so many contractors running federal agencies correct totally and and that’s why is deoe you know at NSA right because most NSA employees like suck and they don’t come in because of Co take 3our lunch breaks are like not effective am I telling the truth here you’re telling the truth and that’s why you’ve got to have a massive effort to dramatically reduce this so that the good ones rise to the top and everyone else uh is is finding other work okay sorry to get so wound up no so you know and then the last thing is is dismantling all of the the specific things like over classification the FBI background checks all of the things that deny information to the political class that the political appointees that prevent them from doing their job okay but this is where people start getting murdered or getting cancer or whatever uh they’re doing to maintain control because if you start threatening I think this is why they’re terrified at Tulsa gabard you start threatening to expose things to let the public know what its government is doing you’re going to be exposing crimes because they’re committing crimes I know that for a fact I know that you know it too so that’s like kind of a scary remission is it not it is it is one that causes you to count the costs but the notion so judicious I love it Tucker the reality and I think this is I would encourage everyone to think this way there is no place in America where you’re going to be protected from the walls closing in on you and your family and um the only extent to which that may not be true yet is the which you know Kevin Bacon’s Degrees of Separation you don’t have someone that’s immedi medely in proximity to the FBI raiding their house uh or being the the victim of law fair I mean I know uh two people very very closely who have been in jail I know me too you know uh four people that have multi-million dollar lawsuits and so they’re coming and the only way to stop that from happening for people that are in this community trying to rebuild from a storm or run their coffee shop the only way to keep it from happening is for those of Us in the political Arena to stand tall and and and unabashedly uh and to to lean forward no matter the costs and that’s the moment that we live in and so it’s not meant to be provocative it it’s it’s just meant to know that if you are uh not loud and proud that’s the wrong way to think about it but if it is uh uh aggressive and public and articulate in how you go about it it will make it so that more and more people can come along beside you and make it so that the president has enough people that are willing to take on the system and I believe that he has a growing number of people that are like that and it will make it very difficult for them to move against individual actors and I you know the nice thing about being out of office is you get to read and and kind of uh wide and understand what happened you know and have New Perspective and I’m just Blown Away by the number of people that they went after individually like like wounded individuals and we never heard about them I didn’t hear about them until after the administration true Adam linger U Mark Moyer these are individuals that blew the whistle on corruption and their agencies conspired with their political appointees to make them go away and I don’t think they’ll be able to get away with that this time around and in some cases really hurt them they wasted three or four years you know they’re dealing with stuff in their families life happens and you’re dealing with the Intel agencies multiple working behind the scenes together never giving you due process and and and and I think that is we know their playbook and we we we know not only what to look for but how to be prepared to um ensure that that cannot happen again I’ve noticed and I don’t think I’ve imagining it that an a huge percentage of people who criticize the Intel agencies wind up with Kitty porn on their computers one of the reasons I don’t use a computer um I don’t think that’s because they’re disproportionately know why you would use a computer you know first of all you know you can’t respond to anything without it being foed right like and so the we have to have a a totally different view about going into government but the Intel agencies are not allowed well most of them are not allowed to operate to domestically period Well they were never allowed they do it but they’re definitely not allowed to play in American politics to influence election outcomes and they’re absolutely doing that how do you stop that well I think you need to have people that are there who are fearless and obviously Tulsi and RFK and not Intel but say there are you know there are certainly Health aspects of National Security uh Matt being at doj uh those are the types of people that you need to get under the the Hood um and to push as much as you possible you’ve got to shut their funding off until they can prove to your satisfaction that things are and then but wait we’re not even allowed to know what their funding is we don’t know what the cia’s budget is well we don’t even know like when when you’re within government you can know those those answers and so those individuals can you can know the size of the black budget corre right so um I have never been in government but I’ve certainly been around this a lot they’re huge yeah yeah no and so why do we have black budgets it’s a great question Tucker I mean there dramatically more transparency needed and I would say it’s one of those areas where uh not unlike the over classification um it there are there are there are things we need to know a lot more about uh and I can’t tell you well what’s the optimal level of of transparency on that front but the extent to which you can’t have a as a citizen and understanding of what the size of your IC Community is that’s kind of a problem I just think you’re ensuring corruption and the size of these these buildings like you go around and you realize oh wow that I that alphabet has an enormous institutional presence that the country’s never even heard about has a real estate footprint that’s beyond what you can imagine I I lived as a child in with my brother in a house in Georgetown in high school that was owned by CIA um so there’s just a lot you go out to Northern Virginia Tyson’s Corner you know take chainbridge from DC into Northern Virginia and like how many of those Office Buildings are owned by the CIA or some other Intel agency like a huge number and so why can’t we know that I don’t understand we need to know a lot more and we need to demand more that we know more like how how is Congress and and yeah they can go into a skiff and they can be given a brief debates are supposed to happen on the House and Senate floor and you can’t you’re you’re providing no ability to be able to share with your voters and us as voters the whether do we ever Vote for This did we ever Vote for This military-industrial complex this Intel Community the extent to which it’s sprawled all over the country like who who got a say in that it doesn’t seem like the Intel I would say is rather undemocratic well the Intel um committees the oversight committees in Congress whose job it is to oversee restrain keep the Intel agencies within constitutional bounds I in my whole life in DC from 1985 until now I’ve never seen a single member of an Intel committee who wasn’t in the pocket of the Intel agencies that’s my perception have you I don’t want to I would just say this Devin Nunes was kind of a uh a unique character in his ability to provide leadership in that and they came came after him with everything they got and he survived and I think he’s a model not unlike when you say they you mean the Intel agenes the Intel agencies the forces that are you know some out of government non-government organizations the press and working with the Intel AG running it through foreign countries I mean it’s never like some guy at Langley you know and so whe why don’t we have more Devon nuses that that would be the question that I would have is what What Fear Factor is there um that and I’m not I’m not making an accusation of anyone I’m just saying that with with all Congress and with all non-government organizations even our or there’s there’s this point where you’re like if I don’t if I go after these individuals this issue set or this this this this area of corruption or this policy set and I saw it right after Maraga was raided and we came out really quickly and said you know the FBI should be radically reformed I think I thought it should be you know exploded to a thousand pieces right yeah there why why do we have such fear that that is such a provocative position cuz you don’t own the government right and so to Surf that’s what we’ve got to go after and I think it’s a systemic issue that we’ve got to tackle with everything we’ve got I couldn’t agree more and you don’t have to respond but I would just say you know if they’re members of the you know Intel committees um providing oversight of the Intel agencies they shouldn’t be allowed to ser Ser if they have spouses who work in the Intel Community sorry that’s like such an obvious conflict that it’s pretty ridiculous that that could exist and yet it does um so uh what tell us on a much happier note sorry for the dark degression um what exactly are Elon and V going to do do you think with this Doge Enterprise well I think they’re bringing an exhilarating rush to the system of creativity um outside the box thinking uh uh comfortability with risk and leverage and boy they are Comfort both those guys are comfortable It’s amazing And the reason I love it is I mean you in some respects you this does feel like an intractable problem that we’re up against and I don’t I don’t think it is but I think it feels that way and we’re bringing people that you know are trying to get to Mars so I’m pretty sure they can handle you know the ability for us to balance our our our books and run a government that’s that’s much more efficient um so I think that the things that I’ve heard them say um are things like really going after from a deregulatory perspective all of the recent court cases that have said um and chopped at the the feet of of this administrative State you know you don’t have the ability to just come up with new major questions you know rank agency Rank and file agency you’ve got to have actual specific language from Congress um you don’t have the ability to get the difference for every position that you’ve taken as just because you’re a federal agency these have been big uh ax cuts at these at at the administrative branches and so I think what they want to do is to use those as the basis for a massive deregulatory agenda and you know game on uh I also think they want to uh look for as much that you can do to start cutting costs without Congress or with Congress but to be really aggressive in some of the areas that I’ve mentioned empowerment would be you know a huge part of that the ability to just not spend the money um and so um and then of course you know being as radical or aggressive as you can um in eliminating and reducing uh employees uh uh you know full-time employees uh individuals and going after contracts that may not make make sense so I I I I think that that’s where they’re headed and I think it’ll be an enormous Bo to the country can you do it from so neither one of them is going to become a federal employee himself that’s my understanding correct that’s my understanding as well I mean they’re not I’ll just say that so how do you do that from outside well I think that you you know they will be working with the agencies that do this I think they’ll be working with OMB whoever is in that role they’ll be working with treasury who’s ever in that role and they will be rallying the theory of the case I mean I think ultimately that’s what’s most needed Tucker is is a specific theory of the case about what can be done that’s right and then you give it to the people and and hopefully that’s been a two-way conversation but you give it to people that uh are on the president’s executive team and his administration and they run with it and then you got Doge out there providing a political support for what must be done even just to publicize the ideas I mean the US government this point is like a it’s like a bankruptcy or stage four cancer something it’s like so overwhelmingly bad that you don’t see a way out of it at least that’s how I feel when I assess it from the outside like how would you even fix something like this we haven’t had any spending reductions in like 20 years right like but we’re bankrupt right but we’re bankrupt and there’s just this notion that nothing can be done about it we still pass $1 billion Ukraine checks is like even if you thought it was a good idea like you can’t afford it like you never have the affordability conversation at all is that is that true it’s totally true like literally no one ever talks about affordability what we and foreign heads of state show up and like demand money from us um and nobody ever says you know I I like your country I don’t or whatever I think you’ve got a good point love to help you but we’re just out a d like nobody even suggests that or dares think that like what is that they just assume the gravy Train’s going to keep on going I deal with the most within the military right but like what’s that like well they they they well you’ve got some road miles on you You’ been you’ve done some stuffff well you know I I want to understand these things I want to understand these systems and these institutions why people say that what they do and there’s just it there’s no understanding whatso there’s like a no fiscal conscience at all with regard to the individuals it’s like nope we’ve got to perform a particular function in the world I read that somewhere in my educational system I now believe it doesn’t matter whether that was never voted on doesn’t matter if that’s kind of anatha to where our founding fathers would have envisioned and so we are going to maintain our presence everywhere in the country I the military get to Define my requirements about what’s necessary to win that military objective you civilian don’t get to ever question my requirements those requirements now automatically cost x amount of money and we wonder why we can’t ever have exactly any cuts to defense and we wonder why then defense spending becomes the ptor guard for the non-defense spending right you okay I know what you’re talking about but you flesh it out a little bit because I think you’ve hit on one of the keys so for for what we have been unwilling to cut any non-defense spending the bureaucracy which is the quote discretionary spending members have a vote on it every single year they don’t have a vote on entitlements they those are on autopilot they have a vote on the bureaucracy so everything they hate about government their members are voting on we haven’t been able to have cuts to non-defense not because Republicans are unwilling although many of them are unwilling as well but because there has been a view that those two things have to be constantly considered together and the Democrats insist and Republican Hawks in insist that defense has to be growing at x% uh to deal with the threats in the world and that requires you to then bring additional non-defense spending to be able to be for that political Coalition and ultimately if you get your average Republican member they ultimately care a lot more about the defense stuff than they do about the bureaucracy can you say that again ultimately you have your average Republican member cares more about the military-industrial complex than they do about the woke and weaponized bureaucracy that is oppressing they care more about flexing their power abroad than about fixing their own country I think that’s I know that’s true because I know I know them they have zero interest anything that’s Happ not zero but they have very limited interest in what’s happening in the United States and the you know 100,000 people dying of drug Odes every year that’s bad yeah so bad oh my heart bleeds the invasion of more than 10 million foreigners into our country without permission oh that’s so bad yeah yeah I got to seal the Border but what they really care about is toppling some government they don’t like or moving missiles to this military based or whatever and why is that well I think it goes to the unhealthiness of the Republican Coalition for like 50 years but particularly in since 1989 tell me what that means so you’re you’re you’re kind of National Republic National Review Coalition your fusionist Republican Coalition was uh anti-communist yes it was social conservatives traditional conserv and it was kind of fiscal Libertarians right that was your Coalition absolutely and it worked until and you know a certain level when we had Soviet Union but when we don’t have the Soviet Union it it it kind of takes on a life of its own and now you have to keep us everywhere in the world to be able to justify all of the institutional buildup and the the the complex that has been built up all of these these you know uh defense industrial companies and things like that and and Pan actually talks about this in his book where he says this was a specific strategy hatched out of the Department of Defense uh by some of the neocons at the time to be able to continue to justify the largest from a defense standpoint that we continue to be uh tied down to that I also think you know is is so that’s a big part of I think why your average Republican that that grows up thinking like okay I’m I’m going to be Pro defense I’m going to be uh uh free market Mark economics and I’m going to be a social conserv at best right those that’s like that’s what you grow up to be 100% and you don’t actually then think through okay what does that mean does that mean I have to then be for every war that’s been hatched does that right do I not to be for uh making a defense that we can actually afford does that mean that I think that from an economic standpoint that we’re not actually citizens before we’re consumers like there’s just a lot of unhealth in all of those yes and it’s not a natural Coalition I mean famously you see this in the Democratic party where you’ve got you know Hispanic immigrants alongside transgender activists and they clearly have nothing in common everyone says that but fewer say the obvious on the Republican side which is that social conservatives aren’t natural proar people and most of them are Christians for one thing so why would they be in favor of killing Innocents like they’re not actually they they’re Believers in a religion that specifically prohibits that specifically and repeatedly so I don’t know how they’ve hung together for so long I I I mean obvious about my position on this I find them repugnant murderous um so that’s my view but I don’t think I’m alone in that why are Christian conservatives naturally defense Hawks like that’s what I’m saying not just defense Hawks War Hawks like what what happened in that well how did Christian conservatives wind up and I don’t want to get too controversial because I don’t want to hurt you but um because I want you to get this job but yeah I’ll just stop I’ll just stop there yes I agree without being too specific about it but there all kinds of acts of violence against Christians yeah around the world in fact it’s almost always against Christians I have noticed that Christian leaders including the speaker of the house like defend on Christian grounds and I just don’t think obviously I find that evil but even if I was in favor of it I would recognize like that’s not something that can last for long because it doesn’t make any sense right well I do believe this is why we we we need to be less doctrinaire on the right gosh and to think actually think you know and read those books you were mentioning earlier read and and to be thinking through and ask the questions and and trying to learn more and realize like you know a history book may have been written at a time to just to to with a particular political benefit and meaning to it and so maybe we don’t take everything you know I don’t know maybe some skills we learned in school right and just common sense intu this is this is a something that I think is something seems off it’s off and that’s that’s a god-given skill that we have we were born with it I think it was given by God but even if you don’t believe in God we were born with it and you we don’t use it in some of the attacks on RFK they say well this hasn’t been proven there are gaps in our understanding our scientific understanding that’s like their bureaucratic way of saying yeah your intuition is right we just haven’t proved it to be able to well they train you to use your intuition it’s like what wait a second I remember being in high school reading an abnormal psych psychology textbook that I bought at the school bookstore that had an an entry on autism that was like two paragraphs long as this esoteric disorder whose Origins we were uncertain of whose parameters were unclear but it was I remember thinking wow that sounds awful and you know 35 years later it’s like a central feature of life in America like what the hell and you’re trained and by the way I don’t know what has caused a massive spike in autism but there has been one right and so it takes a lot of training to get people to ignore that and I do think the training is all designed to get you to ignore what you what is obvious I I think it is I think that that’s the systems do it people get into these and they that’s where they kind of get to the Paradigm level I’m not going to do anything that would hurt National Security I I I came to DC I’m not going to do anything it hurts National Security and I think that’s how we lose people when they go into the skips just to go back to our earlier conversation and youve got to have courage to say look what happens if what happens if your time in office you missed a big issue like Maha is a new issue to me I I admit it I’m trying to I’m trying to read I’m trying to read the means book I read I listen to your podcast you know it’s a new issue but like if I didn’t get my head wrapped around it future Generations would have to indict me for me being irresponsible on on an existential issue facing our country so I don’t think most people think like that but in general I think our Republican Coalition is unhealthy and has been for a long time because we have and if we are the the the the country will be too secular too imperialistic and Global and too economic and I come out of the free market Economist Lane right that’s where I got my start but we’re not consumers like the notion that the end of all economic good is consumption and so consumers get the veto and everything it’s not actually what a a citizen in a country and a nation and so in in each of those I’m sorry can you I feel like you’re saying something really important and I just want to make sure that it’s fully explained what do you mean by that to economic too economic so so you’re not a socialist I know you’re not no I’m a free market conservative right of course you are so but I don’t believe that just because um Facebook is a corporation that means that they get to not have to answer questions about how big they are what they use what the impact is on our country whether they’re reckon brain Amazon giving me you know same day service on a book or a you know a product is awesome I love it but that doesn’t mean that everything that Amazon does is something that we shouldn’t be thinking through and that our our our our normal disposition of free market economics may make us bad at assessing companies once they get too big well it does seem like they as you said a second AG go um we need to be less doctrinaire and I as someone who grew up around as a conservative around conservatives there were these pillars you know hawkish un defense yeah free market um and to a much lesser extent socially conservative which no one in DC actually took seriously at all and they had total contempt for people like you I assume you didn’t grow up in DC I did not uh thankfully the the son of an electrician and the school teacher yeah so this is exactly the kind of person everyone in DC despised um like some Christian electrician please shut up that was their view sorry I’m sure you know that but it’s a fact I was there so but but on the free market stuff if you asked any questions at all it was like shut up socialist and you sure don’t want to be a socialist because that hasn’t worked and it was embarrassing but they kind of maintained control of people on behalf of some of the worst interests in the world by invoking that that’s slurry you’re a socialist oh you’re a socialist did you know what I’m talking about yeah I mean they do in the foreign policy that that’s a you’re a useful idiot for Russia or you know wait they call you a useful idiot for Russia they’re saying that about Tulsi they say about Tulsi right yeah I’ve lived that yes you’ve seen that I have yes in every one of these things when they don’t want to have the conversation they shut it down with the slur of course and and that’s um but on the economic questions I think I’ve been almost hesitant to draw obvious conclusions because I don’t believe in government controlling the economy to a greater extent than it does um I just could not good at it and it just it abets corruption so I’m against that but it doesn’t mean that we have to like be in favor of Usery right right like why is it good to charge 20% interest on a credit card do I have to KN along with that just because I’m a conservative and that’s where if the Coalition was working you’d have a lot more interesting conversations yeah you know you’d have your Christian conservatives being upset with that having debates with the free market coalition to say like where’s a place that we can land um in in ways that previously the conversation wasn’t because in this say okay that’s that’s something that would come out of the mouths of of of our of our adversaries um and we need more of that I think and and you’re going to see it in trade right like yeah trade’s like the one big Domino that President I think finally has now you know toppled with his election but there will be a sizable number of Republicans that are very grudgingly going along or opposed to what he wants to do with what I think is a no-brainer policy with regard to you know Universal tariffs and higher tariffs for China and I want the money to be able to balance the books but I also want this country to be a manufacturing producing Hub and what I found Tucker is that even I can win arguments with those who I who are free Traders because they they themselves have seated the ground of Independence you know if you if you are if you’re comfortable with other countries making your stuff that may or may not be important from a national security standpoint or just period because we won’t want to have to wait for six months to have a a you know a refrigerator you know if you want independence you got to make it here if you don’t want to have to rely on China and have shei shut down his whole economy because he’s dealing with the co of course then then the answer is independence and how do you get to making things more here and just I also zoom out from a standpoint of like parents are paying my rent I’m still a child it doesn’t matter how old I am right that’s right and like there is a there is a balance in every Community we’re not all going to be Carpenters or plumbers or electricians right like there you’re not going to be independent as a person or a community across the board but you would kind of hate it if we didn’t have any carpenters in your community right you’d hate it if you didn’t have any plumbers in your commun community and we’ve gotten to the point as a country where we don’t make this stuff anymore and that’s a real problem and I think it’s just kind of an intuition way of getting at something that um has been suppressed for decades what has been suppressed and there are specific institutions that have made it their mission to suppress it one is the Wall Street Journal the other is the American Enterprise Institute which for my whole life 55 years have been sort of leading standards in the right-wing firmament you know they AI Wall Street Journal like people really care on the right what they have to say and I can’t wait for both of them to collapse will celebrate um I really will celebrate when they go under I mean that but like why haven’t people who want to put the country first its actual interest first built their own institutions to rival The Wall Street Journal and AI I don’t I don’t get it this has been my life’s work for the last four years and hopefully you know over the next 50 is um if I live that long how do you a little excessive well you’re you’re big in the Maha thing now so maybe it’s possible right you know get get that fit on um look I I think this is what is needed as new institutions is why we created the center for renewing America because we wanted to make sure there was a home to give Elites both in DC and in the Grassroots the this is actually how you do what’s necessary to be done so like if president Trump gives a speech in the first ter term or you from your show are articulating something that must be done we felt there needed to be an institution to actually take that and turn it into the regulations the translating into actually public policy and that it has to be new it some exceptions exist I mean Kevin is doing a great job at Heritage but that’s the exception rather the rule my my my view is that you’ve got to create new institutions that are are Scrappy are hungry uh it doesn’t take them two weeks to write a paper it takes them one day to write a paper you get it out there and if that paper’s not read you go and you like get it in front of people so that they understand it and then when they have read it and you figure why haven’t you acted on it what’s you know like you you have to work it hard um and that’s going to come from from not sitting around a board table at a prestigious organization that’s going to come from people who are hardened battle tested and really awesome in their mind as to what they what they think and what they know I mean since we’re we’ve moved toward an economy where like you can’t really do anything without a billionaire on your side I’ve noticed um luckily you know good people now Elon Musk he’s our billionaire uh which is great but big picture it’s super bad to need a billionaire to do anything meaningful and you wonder are Republican donors coming around to the idea that you know America needs to be saved and and that what we’ve been doing isn’t working do you think they see this look there’s a a lot of awesome conserved donors there are you would know and and many of them are are coming to our Banner over time I think the issue is you know do they know about your organization the impact and there’s a lot of grift on the on the on and that’s the problem is like you’ve got to kind of show yourself there’s so much grift it’s unbelievable so you you kind of have to acknowledge yeah there’s a lot of grift out here but at the same time do everything you can to just get up in the morning and do your job and do it effectively and then people come where I feel like the issue is is that with everyone you’re educating them on the same Journey that I think you have I think you’ve talked about it and I know I have of of this this trying to like what’s what has been off about conservatism for a while and been I think the reason why we have lost and been on the edge of tyranny and and sometimes there are there are there are folks that still have viewpoints on that like when we took Ukraine we were the first organization out to oppose Ukraine funding that was risky right because you Putin had just invaded and gone over and we don’t we didn’t want that but we knew where this was headed and that was a long time for us to educate all can I just ask now I’m being like mean and bitter but why would anybody who thought that was a good idea have power ever again like shouldn’t that be a litmus test I do I do believe Ukraine should be a litmus test for the National Security team for sure oh it hasn’t been unfortunately I it’s certainly in terms of like getting a read on where someone is and then you can have whatever conversations you want to have with them but like that was obvious to me I’m just a stupid Cable News host not a national security expert um but I’ve been around it a lot I’m just trying to apply common sense like that was so obvious in February of 2022 this was going to hurt the United States in very serious ways and it has and it has and so over time that Coalition that conversation we’re having about what conservatives need what does conservatism need to be to save the country not protect the you know your little niche within that but to save the country you were given resources to do nothing else but to save the country and that’s what your donors are giving um that conversation on the ideas is why when you come to one of our events with our donors I hand out books like I I I want I I don’t want you just necessarily read our policy paper you I’m sure you’re going to do that anyways I want you reading wer Chambers I want you reading uh Rusty Reno the return of the strong Gods right I I want you reading this stuff we’re giving out Pat buan in books like I want the whole conservative movement to be going deep in these books so that you’re both enlightened encouraged and you come out of fighting for us whether you are the practitioner here in DC the funer on the outside and that is a and that’s a long-term project honestly but I think it’s one that’s absolutely vital last question um in retrospect one of the things I’m most guilty about was being used by well Bill crystal in particular but just as a young man I was used by the forces that control Washington to attack um both Ross perau and especially pep panan you know whatever their human beings say flaws you know obviously but big picture they were kind of right about a lot of stuff correct yeah they were absolutely right they were they were yeah and this has been this has been an undercurrent that has been popped up at times but is largely suppressed by the Republican establishment and their intellectual petorian guard National Review and others and Pat Buchanan was a major uh uh opportunity for for it to punch through and then Donald Trump really punched through and now it’s ascendant and it’s about us going back and trying to think through like what is what are some of these think what is these what these viewpoints mean now like where were they right or wrong what does it look like in health what does it look like with AI what does it look like in all of these different areas but I think it’s primar primarily remembering that we’re not we’re individuals with Souls We’re a nation we’re not just an economy uh these are the kinds of kind of first building blocks that if you get in place then you can have a much more coherent convincing and satisfying public policy life but ultimately I you know I think it’s like Whitaker Chambers married to Pat banan married to to uh someone like a Donald Trump I think that that movement over time is something that um trying to find out how to give it flourish and life and institutions and and will ultimately will be successful in Saving the country man if you L up in this Administration I will sleep better I mean that so thank you Russ I appreciate it thanks for having [Music] Tucker so it turns out that YouTube is suppressing our show I know shocking that in an election year with everything at stake Google would be putting its thumb on the scale and preventing you from hearing anything that the people in charge don’t want you to hear but it turns out it’s happening so what can you do about it well we could whine about it that’s that’s a waste of time we’re not in charge of Google or we could find a way around it a way that you could actually get information that’s true it’s not intentionally deceptive and the way to do that on YouTube we think is to subscribe to our Channel subscribe and you’ll have a much higher chance of hearing what we say and we hope you will
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