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I’m going to try your name in in the German pronunciation okay for fun and after I screw it up I’ll do it the way you ask to so Dr RAR zylman oh okay the the IGN vers Raina zlan the chman version is rard zlan okay rard zlan oh yes it’s close Dr rard zlan yes historian sociologist and author of Hitler’s national socialism welcome to Dad Saves America thank you I’m very excited to talk to you today because for starters Hitler seems to be the only bad guy that our kids in here in America are taught about from history we they don’t get taught about Stalin or ma not really um and he has for for Obviously good reason a huge outsized sort of role in the psyche of sort of historical bad guys and you have written about his economics and about what national socialism meant so I guess for starters you know what was national socialism that’s before I answer the question um you’re absolutely right they haven’t heard about the others about Stalin and Ma I can give you one example I had in the last 20 month um I traveled to 30 countries to promote my books and I asked people have you heard about the biggest socialist experiment in history this was M so-called Great Leap Forward from 1958 to 1962 where 45 million people died and where ER I spoke whether it was in Asia Latin America Europe the United States only very few people raised their hand whether I spoke to 20 people 200 2,000 they haven’t heard about this this is the big problem and of course it’s good that everyone heard about the crimes of you know adol Hitler and who killed six million jws and started second world war but they don’t know much or nothing about his uh economic thinking and this was the topic of my first doctor dissertation that is published in the United States with the title Hitler’s national socialism by the way I don’t like to speak about na or I I I know that you use this word this was a poic word uh coined by his enemies coined by socialists or Communists in the 30s because they or they called him fascist or Nazi because they didn’t want to call him National Socialist this was the way how they called themselves because they don’t want to get uh this word socialism that is a good word for them connected to something that is bad but I think we should call them what they were and how they called them themselves so don’t use na use National socialists and national socialism this was what they are actually before we dive into it because your all of your work is about the economics of Hitler um I want to frame this somewhat for an American audience in that we have Nazi and and fascist thrown around in our politics willy-nilly so um it t it is almost always used for people that are on the political right um currently and for since 2016 Donald Trump is the most recent subject of being called a fascist and and the new Hitler we have the same in in Germany everyone who’s not left is uh is far right or is even fascist or Nazis this is the same in Germany how should I as the American that doesn’t know really anything about history of fascism understand what f fascism even means for real fascism is what they had in Italy with musolini so I I wouldn’t use it for national socialism uh there these were two very different systems of course they had something in common as well communism and national socialism had something in common but fascism the thr the system in Italy and national socialism was the system in Germany all right I’ll keep this quick if you like what you’re hearing hearing and want to hear more don’t forget to hit that like button and subscribe to the channel so you won’t miss our new content as it comes out every week and now back to the conversation I understand that musolini had a vision for soci for fascism that ends up sounding like FDR in the United States basically the sort of big government colluding with big corporations in the name of the national interest putting the sort of Corpus or the body of the state first is that how you understand what F Italian fascism meant uh yes and in this way it’s a little bit similar to national socialism I want to make the point some sometimes people ask me was Hitler a socialist or what is a socialist system and my answer is yes and no no if you think about traditional socialism because the traditional Socialism or communist they wanted to nationalize all private property that is all state-owned this is traditional socialism as they did it in Russia or as they did it in China for example this was not what Hitler wanted uh and not what musolini wanted um they but of course they wanted not capitalism not a free market economy what they wanted is a system like this I Hitler said it in one of his speeches he said I will tell the companies what they have to do and what they have to produce and if they say yes we will do it said then I’m fine with this then I don’t have to do it if they don’t do it then I will do it by myself so that means the state and this is exactly the way as it did it they had also a four-year plan you know in the communist countries that there fiveyear plans in Germany they had a four-year plan starting in 1936 and uh Hitler was not absolutely against nationalization but only if it is necessary for in in his view you know necessary means if they didn’t do what what he told them then he would nationalize of course this has nothing to do with a free market economy if people tell you ah it was capitalism in Germany no it was not capitalism because what’s the difference between a free market economy on the one hand and a planned economy on the one on the other hand in the free market economy companies decide entrepreneurs decide decide what to produce in the endend it’s consumer choice in a planned economy politicians and government officials decide what what to produce and so and and the the the bad thing is that today in in Europe but I think also in the United States uh the what was once capitalism develops more and more in this direction of a planed economy yeah uh only one example here from from Europe they um they banned uh combustion engines or the registration of combustion engines for car from 2035 so it’s not allowed to register uh cars with combustion engines and this is uh the idea you know it’s uh it’s not this way that uh the the companies that Mercedes or BMW will be state-owned no they are private in speech marks but the government tells them okay you have to Pro truce now only electric vehicles it’s not allowed uh longer to produce cars with combustion engines and this is what I call the modern F of socialism in uh contrast to the traditional form of Socialism I don’t know whether you heard this great speech from yav m in Davos I did I did actually but remind me what he said in his speech he said uh there’s a big threat of socialism today and then he added and he said maybe for some of you it’s ridiculous when I talk about socialism today but it’s only if you rely on the traditional form of Socialism where when where everything is state-owned but today they don’t it’s not necessary that the state owns everything you can do it with regulations with taxes and and and and this is a modern form of Socialism in this way yes Adolf Hitler was a socialist but a modern socialist not in the traditional way as the Communist and the reason was you know he was a socio Darin and as a social Darin he believed in competition and he was afraid that if you nationalize everything from one day to another that there would be no more competition and this was the reason why he was tical against nationalizing everything but I have to add this and maybe we can then later talk more about this um his attitude towards this questions uh free market economy planned economy the role of the state changed a little bit in the 30s and the 40s because he became more and more Stalin became more and more his role model and he admired more and more the Soviet planed economy this is what happened in the in the 30s and especially in the in the 40s in the US um there’s a a very famous and influential Economist named Paul Samuelson who has a book it was a it was a textbook for economics that has been used in schools forever Kan people and uh and he had a graph predicting when the Soviet Union become a larger economy than the United States no later he had to put it uh yes because it was ridiculous so this prediction he just kept moving the dates well okay maybe it won’t be 1965 maybe it’ll be 1975 maybe it’ll be 1985 maybe it’ll be 1990 oh wait it’s gone like with doomsday CS you know they always po postpone it to another date if it doesn’t happen I don’t know how or why uh the Soviet the early phases of the Soviet Union appeared at least from the outside to be going so well that someone like Hitler would admire them I don’t know if that’s do you have a do you have a sense of why or how that was happening was it just like moving moving people into cities and sort of force industrializing okay okay if you come from know more and most agricultural background and you started industrialization and you do it with this Iron Fist with a force you know even took the even a lot of people and passants were kill millions of millions and you fought them like slaves of course you can get on the short run some great results on the on the first hands but um yes this was what Hitler admired he there’s one quote from him about Stalin in his inner circle of course he didn’t say it in public you said here there’s a there’s a state and at the top of the state there’s a man with an Iron Fist and he says our 13 million uh that people is it too much for a great idea and this is what he admired with with sty of course if you use uh absolutely Force to to to bring people to do what they don’t want to do voluntarily in in the short run maybe on over a CLE of year you can have some um results but if it is about for example what is from modern capitalism uh creativity you can’t go to someone like Steve uh Steve Jobs for example now this yes this is from the government yes where is it yes this is not the way how it works maybe you can do it in traditional industry with with workers to force them to do like like working like slaves but on the long run uh you know it works much better if people work voluntarily for their own interest as it is in capitalism how do you define what capitalism is because I think the when we talk about these sorts of things the definitions become very important especially because the people that want some perfect version of Communism or socialism whatever they have in their head is um doesn’t seem to have a relevance to history or and the same is true for f fascism national socialism capitalism everybody kind of comes up with their own definition that that is always conveniently not the real thing that’s ever been tried yeah yeah yes very very question first of all there is no pure capitalism and there is no pure was no pure socialism nowhere in the world in the reality we have mixed systems I will compare it with a test tube with two ingredients market and state and capitalism and socialism and everything is a mixture even in North Korea you find of course only very little bit private property and in the gdr in in uh you know East Germany you you had or Poland some private property not not much and of course in countries in in in in Germany they think the United States it’s pure capitalism of course we know it’s it’s crazy it’s not you have a lot of socialism here in the United States so in reality both both are mixed systems there there is no pure capitalism everywhere in the world and even I don’t believe in an kind of Utopia of like some Libertarians of a pure capitalist system so I think we should add more in the test sh more Market this is what what we should do and if you look in the reality if you analyze countries uh and this is my Approach I have it here in in in this book The Power of capitalism if you want to analyze history it’s very important to understand what happens if you add more state or more Market in this test tube I will give you maybe uh examples because it’s very important to understand this Con this this concept because it’s different what some other people think um first example if you add more state it is Venezuela Venezuela was in the70s one of the 20 richest countries in the world and then they started with regulation labor market regulation more and more things became worse and then they made AIG big mistake in the end of the they voted for huko chabz with the socialism of the 21st century and then he started with all this crazy stuff nationalization and you know how it ended now 8 million people fled from Venezuela this is I think 28% of the population the inflation rate some years ago was 1 million per. a total disaster what happened there so so you see what what happens if you add more state in contrast Vietnam Vietnam was in the 90 s or the beginning of the ’90s the poorest country in the world poorer than all African countries first they had the war not only with the United States with France with Japan with China and what was not destroyed by the war was destroyed by the plemy so and then they started with economic reforms in the end of the 80s they introduced private property they opened the economy for foreign investors they stopped a lot of not all regulation they privatized something not everything so and what happened the number of people living in poverty decreased from 80% in 1990 to 5% today why because they added more capitalism more Market even in China a lot of people speak about China as a communist country no China is also a mixed economy it was like maybe 98% socialism in Ma’s time I spoke about the greatly forward when 45 million people died and even in 1981 88% of the population in China lived in extreme poverty 88% today it’s less than 1% why because Deno ping started in the beginning of the 80s with free market reforms private property was introduced and he said let’s some people become rich and today you have as many billionaires in China as no no country in the world with exception of the United States some years ago there were even more billionaires in China as in the United States so and they had an this this growth and and you know I give you these examples for one reason it’s not possible to speak about pure capitalism pure socialism every everywhere we have in the reality mixed systems and I don’t believe like maybe some other Libertarians in the Utopia of a 100% capitalist system because I don’t believe in any kind of Utopia when I discuss with socialists I asked them so you tell me something about socialism where is it or where was it uh was it in China was it in the Soviet Union or in Venezuela or in North Korea or in Romania or in Bulgaria or in Vietnam oh no no this this wasn’t real socialism this was but but where is it show me and then they show me book ah it’s here this book okay if you compare the reality with the book The same thing as if I would compare your real life marriage with a romantic love novel imagine you come home this this evening and your wife says we have to talk maybe about divorce why she started to read romantic laugh novels and she told she tells you this is not as it is this there in this romantic laugh you would say it’s crazy please compare our marriage with others and this is what I do in my books like this book The Power of capitalism for example I compare East and West Germany I compare North and South Korea I compare Chile and Venezuela or I compare China and Mar time China today this is what I do as an historian and then I look whether you give more Market or more stage in the in the test so you the the great thing with capitalism is you don’t need pure capitalism even some drops of capitalism helps to improve so much the situation of people living in poverty especially for poor people it’s so important how does that work in the most simple terms why would a couple extra drops of private property and Market competition and Entrepreneurship the elements of capitalism how why is that so such a potent Force because you’re right and one other example which I’m I’m quite familiar with is India before the 1990s reforms where they had five-year planning and they had Democratic socialism and then in the 90s and they had basically Decades of just absolute stagnation total poverty Mother Teresa going to care for the poor because it was like the poster child for poverty in the 1990s they allow more foreign trade Absolut they reduce what was called the licensing Raj which is this very regulatory State and and India takes off and 8 9% growth and 300 million plus people are lifted out of poverty yeah uh before I come to the answer to your question I will do because you spoke about India uh it’s a it’s a good example because if you a lot of people think that the solution for poverty is redistribution are on an international scale development Aid and that is wrong I give you only one argument Africa received much more development Aid in comparison with Asian countries but Africa is already still the poorest continent and why in Asia they did you spoke about India I spoke about Vietnam and China and of course Tyran Hong Kong and um Singapore all these countries South Korea yeah South Korea South Korea was in the 60s as poor as African countries today and then they decided for capitalism and it’s great I’ve been there several times and say this big shopping centers and all what you see there is one of the leading export countries so you see what helped them was uh economic reforms capitalism this is what helped them to escape poverty India China Vietnam and all these countries and not redistribution and when you ask what helps before I come to the heart economic facts I will talk about something that is very often underestimated by Economist and this is the the the mindset and the attitude for example in China when Deno ping started with his reforms he had one slogan let some people become rich first they admire rich people it was good to become wealthy H and in Vietnam it’s much more they’re crazy about becoming rich I I I commissioned a survey for my for for this book here I commissioned to survey in in Vietnam and um and I did it in a lot of other countries and there’s no other country where people admire so much rich people as they do in Vietnam they invited me for a workshop at the foreign trade University in Hanoi the topic was how can we improve the image of wealthy people I was never invited in the United States or in Europe to such a workshop so this mantle thing is very important because in the moment when some people become rich and they become role models for the others they see ah okay if I do something I can also become rich and this is what people want in China so this is very important that rich people are no longer scapegoats as they are in France for example Germany also for some people in the United States but that they become Role Models this is very uh very important the next thing if I speak now only about the mindset what is very important don’t blame other people or other countries for your problems this is the same for an individual as it is for a country if you want to change your life you know first you have to change your mindset and as long as you blame other people oh I’m a victim of racism of sexism of capitalism so and all this stuff these people will never be successful successful this victimhood mentality but this is not only true for individuals it’s also true for countries again Vietnam they could blame of course the United States for their situation because there were 10 times more bombs and explosives from the United States on Vietnam than in the whole second world war on Germany and so many people were killed they could blame the UN but they didn’t do it they love Americans today okay we made a mistake our economic system was wrong we have to implement some economic reforms in contrast a lot of African countries I have friends in Nigeria and Uganda they tell me our government says oh it is colonialism and slavery things that are 50 years ago 100 years ago and now we need a lot of development aid but this doesn’t change so this things I analyzed in my books are very often underestimated by economists in the mindset but of course it’s also heart facts I’ll give you one example you know uh in this in these countries in most of cases these were um agricultural societies where most of the peoples were peasants and they had in some cases a little bit like 5% of the land they owned themselves for example this was in in Vietnam 5% and then they saw that in this 5% of the land they had a better output and result and the rest 95% that was owned by collectives by collectives because it was their self-interest yes their self-interest and this is the big problem with uh all this you know if it is stain own that there is no longer any self interest and if capitalism emerged it’s not it’s not um top down thing it’s not that you know in history when uh capitalism came into being it was not this way that Adam Smith wrote a book he gave it to a politician and he read it okay it’s good now let’s start capitalism it was not this way capitalism emerged more like plants or like animals you know as a spontaneous development this is what what Hayek uh underlined very often and this is what happened for example if you go now more to the what in the last uh decades I spoke about China I spoke about Vietnam even before the St the state started with this economic reforms peasants rural peasants did it by themselves they left their collectives it was illegal but they in China you’re talking about yeah China and Vietnam the same they were for they had to do it because they had to hunger they were the only alternative so they started with illegal things left the collectives and came back to private property and then they saw it worked and what the government did the government was was only they legalized it they allowed it okay go on before it was forbidden and so you see this is a big difference you have to standard between capitalism on the one end and socialism on the other end this is the reason why intellectuals don’t like capitalism because intellectuals like socialism because it’s like system construction and even Lenin said that the uh that the socialis is never result from the workers movement but from intellectuals and the intellectuals they have to uh to con convince the workers that it is a good system and uh this is the the difference that uh that you know cap capitalism is not a construction but socialism I give you another example for this crazy idea to construct the perfect Society you know what happened in cambota this with this rou 25% of the population were were killed in a in a couple of years and a lot of people thinks oh this were crazy very primitive people who who did it no they were not these were intellectuals they studied in Paris at Elite University they wrote even that doctoral dissertation about perfect socialism and then they went back to kambodja to implement this idea in this Society so this is intellectuals they like this construction but uh this is not a way that that a society and that the economy works I’m familiar with that Chinese case because here in the states a little over a decade ago NPR actually did a story about one of these villages in China who were being told by the the Communist um government sort of local Governors that you don’t even own the teeth in your mouth they are owned by the people the collective and and yet they risked death to reinstitute keeping the surplus of your work having the fruits of your labor be yours not some communist way as a matter of private property this is my land I’m going to farm it I’m going to keep the the product of my land and as you said in this one area um and they detail it with firsthand accounts um the productivity the S of the same people in the same land with the same resources shot up so dramatically that it was impossible to hide what they were doing yes they risked exactly being taken out into a field and just shot and they that’s it’s like that’s how bad socialism is that people will invent capitalism whole cloth to escape it under the threat of being shot there’s a writer here in the states named um Naomi kleene she’s a book I know her from Canada yeah I guess that’s right she is Canadian um although I guess you know American wiers like her um She Wrote This Book the shock Doctrine and in that book she attempts to claim that PR Market reforms are only ever imposed in a period of shock and that it’s all sort of a like crypto Milton fredman Cook Brothers plot that gets un that that that oh like that Javier Malay is not the product of um the people of Argentina being and tired of Decades of their country being destroyed by leftwing peronism no it’s actually the shock Doctrine but what you’re saying refutes that in in every continent of this planet right yeah but but in a way it’s it’s not wrong of course their conclusion her conclusion is wrong uh free market reforms Unfortunately they happen in most cases when when everything was a total disaster before it would be much better if people understand even if in a country that works fairwell let’s do some free market reforms to have it even better but this is what not what happened I have examples here in my book The Power of capitalism UK for example in the 70s it was a total disaster so many people had no job High inflation rate and uh even the international monetary fund that supports usually develop developing countries had to support the the the UK and it was a total disaster and then only then came Mak thater to do their economic reforms we spoke about China or we spoke about Vietnam that had to be the poorest country in the world and now in Argentina with uh with yab m i I know to be honest not not a single case where everything goes more or less well and then somebody say okay let’s try a little bit more capitalism but on the other hand and this is very important to understand it doesn’t happen automatically that when things became very bad that it will turn to become better history is not like a Hollywood movie with an a happy ending as a guarantee um there are other examples I spoke about Venezuela when things became worse because of their regulation then they made it even more worse with uh voting for H chabz or Germany in in the 30s yes when we had 6 million people without job and this crisis and it was not the beginning of a free market Revolution but it was the beginning of national socialism and so you you see um but yes it’s true this is one uh precondition for economic reforms is that Things become uh worse before but it’s not enough you have to add another thing the other thing that is very important is how people think I know a lot you spoke about Argentina I’ve been there several times I will go there next next month I will here um promote promote this book because M spokesman wrote the forward for the Spanish edition of the book and I will promote it there so I know a lot about mle and his movement and it was all prepared by free market think tanks before this was the same in the UK before they had the economic reforms with mager there were institutions like for example the um Adam Smith Institute or The Institute of economic Affairs and in the United States before Ronald Dragon started his reforms there were the ideas of mil Freedman there was a cater Institute and others so without this is a politician on the end it’s he’s important in a way he has to have a a talent to communicate with people like Ronald Reagan or like mure or the or yav M but uh there has to be two things so the um there has to be a crisis and the situation has to be very very uh bad that people start to hear that they are open for other ideas but then it has to be prepared with this with these ideas and so both of this is important that’s a perfect segue back to Adolf Hitler and and the the Germany of national socialism because you have post World War I the byar Republic the a horrible hyperinflation and and collapse and instead of going a liberal way with a Javier Malay type character Here Comes Adolf Hitler who is a obviously like a very effective Communicator where is he drawing his ideas from um what is if if um as you said if Margaret Thatcher and others in our modern time had think tanks and such to draw on for ideas where is Hitler coming up with his vision for the German economy yes first of all what a lot of people don’t know they think about out of Hitler as someone only like um uh ah shouting and you know like being being crazy being being insane because you have when he had a speech about two hours and there were maybe two minutes when he was really you know this way but not the whole speech it’s it’s not possible so they they thought he he was very um irrational and um that he didn’t have any kind of philosophy but that he was just a mad man just a like a madman but this is not true Hitler read a lot of books he had thousands of books and every night he did you know reading books about history about economy about uh politics about military things and there was a movement in the v Republic it was called the conservative Revolution it was called this and they had this some some of these ideas like they called it the large way between capitalism on the one ha and and socialism on on the other or communism on the other this is what he also wanted so this was how he saw his movement as an alternative to Communism on the one hand and capitalism on on the one hand so and he had ideas about the economy before you know first I have to tell you a little bit what I did for my book um my it was this this book hadist naal socialist was my first doctor dissertation you have two phds one in history the other in sociology and this was in in history and I was the first one to analyze first his two books you know he wrote mine com but there’s also another book that was never published in his life it he wrote it 1928 you call it Hitler’s second book but all of his speech I analyzed every speech I was the first one to to read all of the speeches and this time it was um not easy because today you have a scientific Edition for historians uh all of his speeches I had to go to all of his archives and to read and photocopy his the transcriptions of his speeches make photocopies from all this newspapers where his speeches were published and then in addition to this uh he wrote also a lot of essays I copied these and then what is very uh very important um there there are the so-called table talks of AD of AD of hitas or his monologues in the plural headquarter what what is this now every evening um almost every evening he spent some hours in the night he went to bed very late like 3: in the morning or something like this but he went up only at 11: a.m. and he was sitting there with his staff and even with his assistant and spoke all the time about history about economy about politics about uh about women about about almost about religion about everything and everyone had to sit there on the table and and listen to to him some times people were really tired because it was 2 or 3 in the morning but you can’t say oh I have I had heard it before I’m too tired go to bed no if the fur is speaking we have to sit there and listen very interesting yes and there was one Martin Borman his name and he took notes and why is this important we know what he really thought because his status in his inner circle you know and what I did for my book I compared the things that he wrote in his books and in his speeches on the one hand and his inner circle and in some ways it’s consistent it’s the same what he said in his propaganda and in his inner circle but there’s also difference and especially I give you one very uh example I mentioned it before for his attitude towards Stalin and the Soviet Union of course when he was in war with the Soviet Union and with Stalin you could hear not a single positive word about Stalin from him in public in his speeches it WR the enemy but when he spoke in his inner circle it was forbidden to say something negative about Stalin even if someone mentioned that he was a bankrupt before what he was St Hitler interrupted him no no he did it only for revolution don’t say something like this and if there was a picture with a sier in the mouth he said no no don’t take this picture because he admired him there are a lot of quotes from him in his table talks where he said Stalin in his way is a genius he knows his role models like chingis Khan and what he did in the economy is great he said no PE there there was no poverty in the Soviet Union as in the United States for example and they had a gigantic factories and they had this great four-year plans and then it was more and more his idea he said after we won the war we have to go much more in the direction of planned economy because only a planned economy will solve our problem so this was his plan of course in in the time of the war he couldn’t have this huge conflicts with entrepreneurs sometimes they had it yes but it was not the real time but he said very often after we won the war and you know he he believed a lot of time for a long time that he will win the war we will go more more and more in this direction of a planned planned economy and so for this is uh very important to understand this is how he thought yes and he took the ideas you know he he he never he never he he had no high school or what you call or an Austria abitur and he never studied he was like an how you call Auto DST so he he he read books and books and books and and books in R and then he he put it all together and the system at what he said and this is important he said nationalism and socialism is the same it’s the same because it means the priority of Politics the priority of the state and there’s one very important speech he says a lot of people think that first there’s the individual interest and then as a result of all this in individual interests there’s the common interest like Adam Smith said in his book The Wealth of ations and he said this is totally wrong it’s exactly the opposite first there is the common interest and the individual interest is to be you know subordinated to this you had in Germany some slogans at this time one was g b for iall this means common good before individual good this was the slogan gine for I or another slogan was do FK is it means you are nothing your people is everything yes DUIs ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country a little bit like this but I don’t want to compare JFK you know with but of course this is this the the opposite of the a Rand philosophy or the Adam Smith philosophy was out of Hitler’s philosophy that first there’s the nation the collective and so he say yes in a way nationalism it’s the same as socialism it’s about that that it’s the the politic is on the first hand and the economy is on the second hand and and this was his philosophy and yes the the real problem is that a lot of politicians think this way even today one of the conflicts that I’m aware of and at the time in the streets was a was a conflict between the young National socialists and Communists who believed in a sort of international Revolution is that is that is that correct yes and some people interpret Hitler to be fundamentally closer to Reagan than to Stalin because he was in a battle and his people were in a battle with the Communists is that is that am I am I understanding that correctly yeah but this is absolutely wrong you know Reagan is a free market thinker and pro democracy against any form of totalitarian think and Communists and National socialists they competed there were Rivals against democracy against capitalism they were more Rivals and Hitler had fear about the Communist he to only took them serious he thought that the how they call them the bua the B the bua parties as very weak you weak and the Communists and the workers as strong and he said we have to win these people to come over the workers the Communists because they are strong because in his world view what was soal Darwinism it was only between the strong and then the you know the um the the the the the weak one and for them the the the buar system was weak so the only really threat for him was communism and he admired the Communist in a lot of way he he adapted a lot with his uh with their Ries and so even in mine C he wrote that uh he he analyzed why they were successful and then he uh for example the the the you know the the workers day that is in Germany the the 1 of May what is a a free you you don’t have to work there I think the United States is not this way I think you have to work on the 1 of May yeah there’s there’s no uh but in Germany today you don’t have to work there on the 1 of May this was always the you know the the the day of the fight and struggle from the communist movement but one of the first things Hitler did he made it a free day in in Germany for for for everyone so he he he adapted some of the ideas and some of the method from Comm from the Communist because he thought they are much more successful than the other ones they are stronger and he said I tried always to win the people from the our left because they were real Fighters really strong and not like this carard you know bua tolerant because tolerance was for him a very bad word like tolerance say he admired people when he wanted to praise something when he wanted to praise speak positive about something someone he said oh he was really fanatic yes fanatic means from this is great he was real fanatic like from Far well this is the people that we need for our movement so they competed each other in their fight both against free market economy against capitalism so it’s very wrong I know there’s an interpretation that Hitler was um his real enemy was communism no his real enemy was democracy liberal democracy and capitalism and his competitor in the fight against who will succeed in the fight against democracy who will win in the fight against um capitalism this is uh his movement in the end of his life in 1994 four he he met musolini the fist leader from Italy and he said to him capitalism has no future the future will be national socialism Fascism and maybe bolism communism in the East Maybe even at this time he was not 100% sure to to win totally so and maybe bism would remain so this is what you have to understand that it’s a misunderstanding that Hitler’s real purpose was to overcome communism communism was his enemy is but more in the way of a rival of two totalitarian movements that both go against capitalism and there are other interpretations for example maybe you heard about chm historian an SN in a way I I I I I like him and I met him several times and he had this theory that national socialism was all against communism but I I I don’t believe so sometimes people ask why was his fight stronger against the Communists against as against this bua forces because he didn’t take the other series he thought okay these people for forget them they are not strong these These are weak weak people uh I and and he had fear yes from Comm but because he in in his world view he he is always very important to understand yet only this thinking strong and weak and strong and weak Communists strong workers strong bu capitalism weak this is how we thought I think this framing that you’re describing this celebration of strength over weakness over um you know cowardliness or or or softness this might be what the area in in the way Donald Trump speaks that gets people triggered so much because he does use the language of strength um and the admiration of strength um in his rhetoric quite a bit yes um even even in terms of the on the international stage you know even in terms of talking about someone like Vladimir Putin and I’m not I’m not in the crowd of people who obsessed with some notion that there’s a crypto Russian thing going on with Donald Trump but just as a objectively that notion of being strong is something Trump clearly puts forward um in his rhetoric and even to to there’s a there was a recent interview um with this podcast of tech billionaires basically it’s called the Allin podcast and and and one of the I’m forgetting his name off the top of my head but one of the people in this group had attended a dinner with Donald Trump and he said you know it’s really surprising like in a private dinner he’s actually quite warm and he even sort of opens the conversation up to the crowd and listens and is is is friendly he’s much softer and more empathetic and sure I can’t imagine this than he is you know he goes out and he’s all strong strong win win we’re going to win we’re strong strength and uh so how do you you interpret the rhetoric in America around Donald Trump and and the comparisons to Hitler and for someone who’s gotten their mind sort of like worked up to thinking we are on the verge of having Hitler 2.0 what do you have to say to them so I want to differentiate of course it’s always difficult and to compare someone with Hitler because someone who killed 6 million Jewish people started war and if you compare it but of course there are things as you said that are in a way similar and also a little bit uh how Donald Trump thinks about the economy he’s not a free market guy for the economy he always thinks a little bit like where I tell the people what they what they have to do yes on the other hand Donald Trump did some good things some deregulation some lowering taxes because members of his par is one and of course I think in a way he admires people as uh Putin or maybe even from North Korea Kim who he thinks that they are strong but I don’t believe that Putin is strong he’s not strong Putin is a loser with atomic weapons this is through if you look about the economy even before he started the war the GDP from this Russia was less than Italy and this is the biggest you know there’s no country in the world with so much uh resources and commodities as Russia is and they they depend only on their oil and uh gas as some developing uh countries uh you know do you know any products maybe a little bit in in the militaries but we in Germany we have our cars and so on you have your Apple there and your Facebook and your Google and also the Chinese they have some great you know companies but which Russian conference do you know vka maybe or so they and they have a pro economy and uh and no one would uh ever listen to someone like Vladimir Putin or Kim in Korea if they didn’t have Atomic weapons it’s like a little bit in the school yes where you have some really smart intelligent people and then you have some who who are only strong this way yes and you have fear from them but only this is the the the only weapon that they have their Force so I don’t think that that Putin is he’s only in a way strong because he’s agressive and he has all this you know weapons but if you don’t wouldn’t have them he’s he’s not strong in a way even you know in the I think he has a lot of fear because the situation for people in in Russia is really bad and sometimes these dictators they start wars to bring the people in their country together we know from history there were other cases when when dictators started War because they were weak inside and it was the only way to bring the the people in the country together but this is the way how I see it I think I I think there’s some reason to that Donald Trump maybe he has a total different view it’s complicated in the United States to speak uh it’s another topic about Donald Trump I found it out here when I spoke with the people because most most of the people are this way either he’s the God if you criticize anything oh no everything is great what Donald Trump does and for others is the evil he’s evil the devil and when you say but he did some good things he did some deregulation everything he did was wrong and if you have like I have a more differentiated position say some things are good that he did sometimes are really crazy in a way it’s hard because in the end maybe it will be result now from this interview you have only animist because the people from you know who who love Trump they say oh he criticized him and the people who are a oh he said something positive about Trump but okay I have allowed myself to have a more differentiated position there’s something going on let me just say this the in my person on a personal level my worry in 2016 kind of came true and that was that well my first worry was that Trump had been a lifelong Democrat and um for different parties even yes different convictions independent Democrat everything yes and and he was and and he was you know he ran with the clintons and like there was no reason to believe that Donald Trump would do anything that was from a political policy perspective conservative in 2016 it was weird that he was even running as a republican it was like oh maybe he’s just gotten old and grumpy and now he’s a republican I was it wasn’t clear because he was always a Democrat you know so I was actually pleasantly surprised by his presidency in so far as he did a lot more and maybe this was just the people he hired he was more of a traditional Republican in terms of policy then then it looked like he would I think the people of the party the people the donors and people who support him they that you have to bring taxes down and do some oh did some good things but I think the difference between Trump and you know I don’t want to compare him with Hitler because there are so many things different also Hitler was someone very an um you know with uh he believed in ideology and he had an worldview all of his life it was very consistent what what what what he thought yes this what the ideology he believed in and these people are very very dangerous Trump I think he has no ideology the only thing he believes in that is me me me his power yes like how do you maist yes M and opportunist yes it’s about power it’s about being being famous yes it’s about having and and these things so in some ways these politicians are better than fanatic people with an ideology in some ways they are they are dangerous you know my favorite politician to say this here I’m a fan of Ronald drag in in everything that he did I think the United States would need someone like him who had who believed really in the in the market economy who believed in capitalism and also in his International politics he was really strong and without him the defeat of Communism also the reunification of my country of Germany wouldn’t have been possible and I think uh this is what I think he was for me the greatest president in the last 100 years in the United States the unification of Germany is a really interesting thing that has started to be sort to vanish from thought at least in terms of dialogue and discourse there when we talk about comparing systems uh there’s these satellite evening photographs that are that that that have been taken and North and South Korea yes yes North and South Korea so South Korea covered in lights that’s wealth that’s industry that’s the ability to read at night nor North Korea dark as a closet it’s absolutely nothing there’s a couple of specs West Germany East Germany used to be the same thing not as extreme but but of course yes it’s a good topic because you know here in my book The Power of capitalism I analyze it and I produced also film this is live behind the Berlin Wall you can get it for free on on on YouTube I com it’s only 17 minutes I compare eastn westro and this is a a perfect example because the same country the same culture the same language the same history the same people only different economic system so you can compare it it’s a perfect natural experiment perfect and I give you only one examples when the gdr came to an end in 1989 for those that don’t know the history gdr what does that mean East Germany socialist yes they called themselves the the the chm Democratic Republic yes it’s always Democratic Republic with the always yes it’s always democratic like North Korea also so um and um and then for example 16% of the population owned a telephone and in West Germany 99% had a telephone or another thing today anti- capitalists tell us all um capitalism is a cause of climate uh uh change and for environmental problems and we have to fight against capitalism to stop this problems with climate change the exactly the opposite is true the CO2 emissions in East Germany were three times higher adjusted to GDP of course than in West Germany Three Times Higher and for other Airborne pollutes it was even more sulfur dioxide 10 times more in the gdr than in West Germany and you have another another example uh even in 1989 27% of the people in East Germany had not their own toilet they had to share it with other tenants and this is brings us back a little bit to national socialism because there are some continuities between both uh in East Germany there was a rent freeze and a lot of people socialist young people they like this oh rent freeze sounds good yes yeah rent control like oh the rents are too damn High let’s just have the government tell people they can’t go any hire and this is what ADF Hitler did he he gave it to his people as a present to his 47th birthday this rant free and then the gdr they they took the same you know they they followed up it was the same law you know in the gdr and of course the rans were very low but the result was that it was a totally total disaster because there was no money for any maintenance or modernization and uh and uh uh and a lot of them were 40% were severely damaged and 10% were even uninhabitable so this was the result so there are some continuities also between national socialism we talk about and then later the gdr the the the rent control the rent freeze is only one of these examples Milton fredman I think I think it was Milton Friedman that said you know put pictures up and said guess which image is a war War torn building and which one is the result of rent control yes because they would both look debilitated and destroyed yes AB absolutely and no even even socialism in in a way if it is for some decades is worse than a war it’s it takes longer to to rebuild it it was very difficult for us in Germany took billions and billions more than 80 billion euros and uh to to to re to rebuild it all no and and another example uh sometimes I ask people what do you think how long did you have to wait for car in East Germany do do do you know what what what would you guess so how long do you have to wait you to put list years I was heard it was years yes most people think oh three months or how long no the shortest time was 12 and 1/2 year 12 and a/2 between 12 and A2 and 17 years this was how long you had to wait of course you could buy a used one but it was even more expensive than a new one and in contrast in West Germany you could go to the next car dealership and take it away the same afternoon and the difference is in West Germany where you could get it so fast you could get Mercedes or BMW or F wrong in the gdr they were famous to to produce the worst car in the world they called it the tropy yes and this is but you had to wait for it so and so I think it’s so crystal clear that capitalism is better better for the environment better for especially for poor people this is what a lot of people don’t understand they think capitalism is good for rich people no the strong people you know they come along in in every system even in a dictatorship they come along anyway you know for poor or they can they can leave the country say I don’t like it here that how for example in France now there’s a crazy they voted for for left government and they have done out the idea to to tax all people who own more than 400,000 EUR the year with 90% that’s go great yes yes the result is that of course now Rich will think okay let’s leave there let’s go somewhere uh somewhere else where it’s better so poor people can’t do it yes they have no alternative for poor people the only thing is capitalism and this is you know what is here the topic of my book how Nations is cap poty are started with Adam Smith I know Adam Smith was not right in in everything he he wrote there’s a lot of criticism from Roth and others and they are not wrong but in one way he was absolutely correct in his book The Wealth of Nations he his his topic was poverty how can a nation Escape poverty you find very few sentences positive about rich people more negative sentences but you find a lot about for poor people and his theory was that the only way to escape poverty is economic growth and the precondition for economic growth is economic freedom and in this way he was absolutely right and he’s confirmed by history because what almost most people do not know I see it in my lectures uh 200 years ago before capitalist 90% of the worldwide population lived in extreme poverty 90 to dat’s 88.5% less than and this never happened before in history especially in the last decades even in the the beginning of the 80s 43% of the worldwide population lived in extreme poverty so it’s the greatest time ever what happened in the last decades in contrast to what for example left-wing economists like Thomas pkt tell us his his theory he cares about inequality yes he seems to be really good at lying Thomas py um I would say it in different way he has completely different priorities he doesn’t care about poverty it’s not a topic for him he cares about inequality I don’t care about in inequality this is a topic for envious people inequality my topic is poverty and and I will uh and and you know what what he says he says in the most time of the 20th century it was good because um inequality decreased as a result of the wars for example but then he said the bad time started in the ’90s when uh the the gap between the poor and the rich became bigger for me this is the best time in history because this is the time when so many people escaped poverty and um and you know we spoke about China about Vietnam I was there several times I found no one who told me oh let’s go back to Mars time because because we were more equal of course they were more equal if you this this measure with the geny coefficient and so of course they were more equal there were no billionaires in in China at this time maybe ma was a millionaire but there was not a single billion billionaire today you have so many billionaires and this is also something that is important if you analyze the last decades I spoke about it the number of people living in poverty decreased from 43% in the beginning of the is to 8.5% today in the same time the number of billionaires increased and for example in 2000 we had 500 billionaires today we have 2,700 billionaires and why is this important because socialists believe what I call the Zero Sum belief the Zero Sum thinking they believe that rich people become only Rich because they took it away from the poor but there’s some fixed there’s some fixed pot of wealth pick cake not to make the cake bigger but the pigs but if this would be true you don’t have to be a genius in mathematic to understand if at the same time the number of people living in poverty decreases and the number of billionaire increases where should they take it from it’s not logical and this zero some belief is also wrong if you see it in an international concern you know that people think African countries are poor because Western countries exploited them and they are responsible because of colonialism and all this stuff and so their conclusion is we should give them back because we stole it from them but this is not true the reason why they are poor is the lack of economic freedom and they would be rich if they start with you know of course first the rule of law this is very important it’s a precondition for economic freedom the rule of law and then economic freedom and this helped every country so far and it will help also in argentinia we spoke about them if people in Argentina are patient enough this is and this is the next thing that you have to understand here in my book on Nations care poverty I I analyzed not only Vietnam I aned Poland and Poland was in the 80s one of the poorest countries in in Europe and then they started with free market reforms in 1990 since three decades Poland is Europe’s growth champion so it’s and the the uh man who who was responsible for this reforms his name is bit he was also Professor for economics he believes in the same as yab m in hyek and mises the personality is totally totally different yes but they they have the same belief system and so and and when I will go to Argentina uh in in the next month uh and to to uh um um to promote the Spanish version of the book there I wrote forward and I told them you see two things with Poland first economic reforms work they are successful you can escape poverty this way but more important you have to be patient because first some things will become worse for example hidden unemployment become open unemployment and in Poland there were two years with a you know uh negative GD GDP with a sign of the GDP this is always what happens it was the same when mag that started their economic reforms and and this is what I want to tell people and I hope they they listen to it in Argentina to have to be patient you can’t solve problems that will cost about decades decades and decades you can’t fix them in a half year and not even in a year you have to give him a few years of time and then it will work as it worked everywhere in the world and I hope that it will work arenta because if it works we will have a capitalist Revolution all about Latin America because the poor people in Venezuela or in Colombia uh in other countries in Brazil they will look okay it works there but if he will not succeed and it can happen if people are not patient yes that will be very hard for our ideas because everyone oh you see he tried it this crazy C capitalist libertarian ideas they they do not work and so we should cross fingers very important that that he will be successful so here we are it’s 2024 we have decades and decades and Decades of natural experiments across every continent in which the same people were divided by a wall like East Germany and West Germany one side rich and wealthy just focusing on the bom five 25% the poorest people the poorest people in West Germany living a better life than the richest people that weren’t in the political class in East Germany North Korea South Korea Vietnam pre-post India pre-1990s Hindu rate of growth you know um fiveyear planning Democratic socialism post 1990 taking off like a rocket we come to Africa which is now as I understanded and Africa has many different countries with different levels of um uh Economic Development and policies understand many countries in Africa are actually growing quick quickly now but Africa um has the worst Colonial export of all Marxism Marxism was not some innate African philosophy it is is a European Colonial export and yet we are told as liberals as free market people that we are the colonialists that not the marxists whove pushed radical nonsense on people in South America and in Africa you know the colonial question is that much weirder because if colonialism was so awesome why is Spain a poor Basket Case compared to Germany or the UK or even the even United States was a colony you know your success in the United States didn’t depend on having a lot of colonist in India was was colonized by by Britain and for for for decades after Independence remained desperately poor and then only a political change towards Freer markets caused the growth why does this ideology survive so first of all it’s a funny thing I never saw it before but next time when I discuss with some of this post colonialism and whatever people marks yes you’re right it’s the Western Society is to PL for things that happened in in uh Africa and all these countries we are guilty yes you’re right because we exported this Marxism to this country but by they why is that because if it is so crystal clear as we had it there yes if is not Crystal Clear why is that two reasons first these people are much better than we are the anti- capitalists in marketing and publication and we should learn from them they are much better especially with emotions now we have all these facts this arguments I tell you GDP per capita increase so much so much but they have the emotions I remember a few month ago I’ve been in um crease and it was after an a train accident where 50 people died of course capitalism was the plan for this as always there were big protest because capitalism invented trains I guess I and there were a big protest and I was in the hotel the hotel was next to the Parliament and in the Sunday I I looked there the protesters and I saw them and they sung half of the time songs beautiful songs I couldn’t understand because I don’t know GRE but for your heart yes and then I said to my girlfriend who was on my side do you see what’s the problem I have the facts in my books but they have the emotions and what do you think what is stronger and so we should learn a lot from the anti capitalist they are much better in marketing and publication and I know a lot of think tanks we have too many thinkers I have a theory I have here this haek I have here this other mises quote and this pricing Theory so not interesting for most of for me yes but for most of the people you have to explain it to them our philosophy in a simple way and I think this is a little bit my talent I told you when I was in Argentina maybe another funny story I had a lecture there with um young people in the beginning of the 20s and you know this Argentina believed always in the state I want to get everything free from the state this the government is responded from my life but now it starting to change and I explained it in a different way not with abstract Theory there was a young man beginning of the end is sitting in the first row and he was not really handsome so I thought maybe I has not girlfriend I asked him hey do you have a girlfriend no I don’t have would you love to have a really beautiful girlfriend oh oh yes she said and then I asked her what what do you expect who will bring you this beautiful girlfriend the government the state he left I don’t believe sir then I asked him but what do you think who’s responsible for getting this beautiful girlfriend and he answer I think that’s me yes you got it this is all you have to know about our classic liberal philosophy it’s on you don’t wait for the government don’t wait for the state it’s on your so you have to try to you know to to explain in simple ver and even if you read my books you will see is I guarantee not one mathematic formula I was very good at school in mathematic but you have no and no Theory no I only I’m an historian I speak about history about evidence and this is the way how I try to do it but of course it would be much better to put more emotion as I want to start to produce more films because young people watch for film so I can recommend one more time you can find it YouTube live behind the Berlin wall or Poland from socialism to Prosperity but I hope I can do much more my friend thank you for being on Dad Saves America thank you great was a pleasure to talk to you great questions
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