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thank you both very much um Oliver you first do how close do you think we are to nuclear war right now that’s why I came up here yes or down here yes just tell you I’m scared I’m really scared [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] I’ve been talking about it off and on since 2014 when the Ukraine thing happened yes I was saying this is frightfully like there’s a lot of elements of World War I the alliances the NATO alliance and yes the United States’s involvement and it’s hatred for Russia is astonishing to me considering the recent history the last 20 20 years before that there was no reason uh for us to pick on Russia and go back to this cold war Neo cold war that we have that’s what I don’t understand and I’ve been talking to Peter about it’s it it defies logic because he says it’s the neocons in Washington that started that and they never left you know they were always there pinski from The Carter days these are old arguments I I heard them with my father who was a conservative relatively conservative in New York City back in 1950 that the Russians were going to invade us and this was the very much the feeling that McCarthy was saying they’re in the schools they’re in the churches they’re in the but that’s just it was such paranoia and I think you know that now you you grew up like like conservative too yes you know when did you start well I am conser on on many things but I I see no reason to be at war with Russia and I don’t know why Russia would be an enemy they’re part of the West it’s shocking to me because what Biden did and I voted for him in 2018 he never talked about changing the Russia policy yes he never did and he never gave us any kind of knowledge of Education about what he was thinking but he seems to be a all and out allout cold warrior I mean everything he’s done has been to antagonize him in fact he called he called the president of Russia a thug and a murderer before he got elected so he hasn’t been very diplomatic no I would say not about it it must be strange for you to to have grown up in the Democratic party Republican party oh right but I mean as an adult to see the party that was the party of peace and Reconciliation become the war party everything has turned around everything has turned around with Peter we were talking last night and uh Peter’s my co-author on Untold History of the United States and we’ve been talk he he taught me a lot of of this history because he specializes in it for many years but here we are with this situation where Democrats I want want war they push war they’re pushing the strategy of weakening Russia which is a self-defeating suicidal strategy why what’s the purpose of it what did they do to us what did they do I don’t understand I don’t know what did they do to hurt us and what has Ukraine to do with that distance for us to do this involvement with NATO this NATO uh also for me as a half European my mother was French I spent time in Europe as a kid what I’ve seen is a huge change in Europe that’s what’s terrifying to me why the people don’t want war but the EU which is this political over overrider seems to want war and because the leadership in the EU is very elite uh people who seem to come from the same school Factory or whatever they produced by they they seem to think the same way that Russia is going to invade Europe again that we’re back to that World War II argument which was nonsense in the first place yes so here Ukraine Russia wants Ukraine and then they’re going to go for Poland that’s what Cala Harris said at one point that’s the stupidest statement I’ve ever heard I think from a political leader just ignorant no education no history what do you think accounts for big picture the hostility of NATO and Europe to Russia what is that it’s got to be education it’s got to be propaganda this they believe these things the woman who runs the EU Ursula she constantly says these things that are ignorant ignorant of what’s happened in the last 20 30 years they ignorant what happened in the ’90s in Russia she’s just they’re not taking this into account I talked to mccon at one point and he was very reasonable man I thought he was saying things like we need more nuclear energy in France right great and now he turns around and he’s saying that Putin he’s willing to send French troops into Ukraine the British are the worst Storer this Prime Min this new prime minister labor prime minister you know who he is he’s quite he said yes two days ago he said we have to we have to punish Putin to the maximum because he’s Relentless that’s what he said we have to punish so there’s a an aspect of personal a personal thing about Putin like Biden made it personal saying he a thug and a murderer and and starmer saying he has to be punished Putin has to be punished not Russia it’s bizarre we didn’t talk like this back when we were mature back in the 50s 60s when we talked about Russia as an enemy because we thought it was adversarial yes I have we I disagree with that but we thought so and we acted as such but we didn’t personally insult kof or BNF of course and here we are insulting them constantly so Biden I think is is some people say uh blinkin has taken his control of his mind I don’t know but Anthony blinkin is is trained in the Hillary Clinton Diplomatic School he was for many years he’s been under her Wing yes so has gather Jake Sullivan did diplomatic is a little strong by diplomacy it’s just you know regime change kill the leader you disagree with diplomacy is a dirty word now in the United States okay so so but Peter I’m interested in your perspective like why do you think the entire United States from a position of Greater weakness has with Europe pivoted against Russia of all the potential enemies why Russia what else is new right I mean we’ve been going after Russia since 1917 we got we’re mad at them well um a in World War I Lenin and trosky pulled Russia out of the alliance and had the Treaty of BR Lov yes where they gave away a massive amount of Russia to Germany in order to get peace at that point and what does the United States do with the Brits and the Japanese and others we send troops into the Soviet Union in 1918 there were 15,000 American troops there and Churchill want wanted to overthrow the new Soviet government he said we should strangle bolshevism in the Cradle so this goes way back to them we didn’t even recognize the Soviet Union till Roosevelt was in power in 1933 so and then during the war they became our Ally yes and in fact they were the ones who won the war in Europe correct but I asked my students who won the war in Europe you know people grew up believing that the Americans won the war in Europe it’s not true it’s not even close to the truth we certainly contributed a lot during World War II but the Soviets throughout most of World War II the US and the Britain were com confronting 10 German divisions between the two of us while the Soviets were confronting more than 200 German divisions on their own that’s why uh that’s why everybody understood what Kennedy says in his great 1963 American University Commencement Address what the Soviet suffered in World War II is the equivalent of the entire United States East of Chicago having been wiped out you know so you would think that we would be friendly with them afterwards and Roosevelt had a vision for that in fact Roosevelt promised Stalin in May of 1942 that we would open up the second front before the end of 1942 he asked St to send over Molotov and a trusted general for that meeting in the White House in 1942 and we made that promise we don’t open up the second front till June of 44 and by that point we had lost all the Diplomatic initiative the Soviets had were defeating Germany largely on their own with support of us material and so they were pushing back the Germans over Central Europe and Eastern Europe and so the idea that Rosevelt gave away anything at Yalta that the Soviets didn’t already have is nonsense the Soviets had that area and S 40 That’s 4445 then unfortunately Roosevelt died and even more unfortunately Truman became president instead of Henry Wallace which is another story I hope we can get into because Oliver and I do a lot about that in untold history and we argue that had Wallace become president on April 12 45 1945 instead of Truman there would have not only been no atomic bombings in World War II there would have likely been no Cold War history could have been so so different uh but instead we developed this enmity toward the Soviet Union instead of seeing that our allies who suffered so greatly and showing some largess and generosity we begin to vilify them after that and the Crackdown that happens in Eastern Europe doesn’t happen immediately that takes place over the next couple years it’s a much gradual process they allowed a good degree of democracy in most of Eastern Europe till really the the uh the Truman uh Doctrine 1947 really and then after that then the cold war is on and and but Kennedy was the one who saw it differently and we can go into that too anyway I’m giving you a lot of history very very quickly none of that um is surprising but none of it I would say accounts for the shift after the one that Oliver referred to after 2014 at maidon but actually starts earlier because we when the Soviet Union collapsed 1989 1990 1991 during that period we had a chance to actually reach out in a POS much more positive way but it’s in 1990 that Charles Crow Hammer the neocon theorist says the Soviet Union has collapsed says this is America’s unipolar moment he says we’re the only force in the world that can do dictate world events and he said the po moment is likely to the last 30 or 40 years it was in 1992 that we come out with the defense planning guidance which is a much more elaborate plan of how we’re going to dominate the world and then uh 1997 the project for New American Century takes shape and that really fleshes it out much greater and they say in that 2000 report that we’re not be able to rebuild at our defenses as quickly as we want unless we have a new Pearl Harbor and they got that in 2001 with 911 and so then we invade Afghanistan then crowd Hammer revisit let me ask you to do you think the people who said that we needed new Pearl Harbor in order to rebuild how do you think they felt about 9111 I think they saw it as a tragedy and an opportunity you know I think they so you’re not suggesting they knew about it no I’m not suggesting that and Oliver I think it’s a mystery H in what sense I think it’s a mystery I don’t think it’s solved no because because all the events of 911 have not come out no they haven’t what do you think that is I uh I would have to really study this but it’s just so many questions I have so many this this is not the subject today but yes it leads to this feeling that there’s a cabal or something in Washington and has been there kind of a strange ghostlike cabal that goes back to the 60s with Kennedy’s murder yes that continues in some strange embodiment today and don’t ask it sounds it sounds like it but it’s a a strange concept but I you have to think about it well we can’t assess it because the files are still classified 23 years later everybody’s talking about conspiracies now I I mean it all a lot of the lunatics have come out of the Asylum no doubt but there’s a lot out there in the public that really should be examined and questioned and asked and it’s that’s what’s the establishment’s freaking out because it’s we’re overloading it you know it’s running over the raits now they can’t defend them anymore yes I mean there well you were you were once derided as a conspiracy I don’t I don’t think so anymore I but I’m still alive you’ve you you’ve lived to see your own Vindication well yeah in a sense I mean I’d love to see Kennedy understood better by the mass because you know you still hear this silly Lee Harvey Oswell did it stuff you know I mean it it they allegedly they never said alleged you know alleged killer they always say killer but you know those are I feel sorry that that happened but that’s a bigger story now it’s a bigger story because now it’s the world’s is a stake it’s not the life of one man he had a vision as Peter said of humanizing Russia bringing them into the world community that was defeated when he was killed that was very badly defeated Cru fell shortly thereafter the the premier of Russia he fell too because he wasn’t sufficiently strong with the United States so both he caved in during the Cuban Missile Crisis so his Hawks wanted to get rid of him for being too weak but let me go back to what Oliver’s saying because in October of 1962 right after the Missile Crisis two weeks later Cru writes an incredible letter to Kennedy in which he says from evil some good must come our people have both felt the burning flames of thermonuclear war we have to use this now to eliminate every conflict between us that could lead to a new crisis and and Kennedy and kusf slowly on Kennedy’s part more rapidly on KVs they began working together in 63 Norman Cousins was the intermediary and he met with kusov twice and made it clear that the United States really did want to have a peaceful reconciliation and had Kennedy live mean his Au commencement address that I mentioned is I think the most important presidential address of the 20th century can you flesh that out a little bit of his last big speech he gave before he was murdered one of it was a great speech what did he say well a Norman Cousins came back from Russia and said kushev needs some obvious signal that you’re serious and so and he and Norman Cousins actually wrote the first draft and then Kennedy took it and uh and they didn’t let the CIA the state department or the Pentagon even see it beforehand which is why Kennedy was able to It’s called The the strategy for peace speech and he what he says there among other things is that the relation between the US and Soviets is tragic why should we be enemies why should we see them as enemies what Kennedy could do and he does in that speech is see the world through the eyes of America’s ad adversaries when was the last time we had a leader who could do that I I mean Carter may be for a minute Obama may be for a minute but but nobody else so what what what Kennedy says is so relevant to today he says to put a nuclear adversary in a position of either suffering a humiliating defeat or using nuclear weapons is either a colossal failure of statesmanship or a collective Death Wish For Humanity which is exactly what Biden is doing at this it’s what we face right now yeah so how was that speech received it wasn’t as appreciated as it is now it should be read how was it received in Washington oh I would think a lot of people didn’t like it because they saw him as some kind of idealistic fruit cake yes I really think so uh certainly he’d fired dollas and he’d fired the top people at the CIA but I think there’s a deeper people in economic activity also were upset with him because there were changes in the economics of the play the Democrats were gearing up for the future they were going to win the next election that second second term was very important and they had a third term possibility with Robert Kennedy and a fourth term possibility with Teddy Kennedy there was a possibility of another Roosevelt that was what’s terrifying to the Republicans I think certainly to my father and uh I I and I think that ties in you were asked earlier why you know why and I’m I’m racking my brain but I go back to my father who was a stock broker a very good one and econom he was intellectual he wrote about to him it was it goes back to the World War I again to this concept of they changed their system they broke the rule the international the rules B the rules-based order was changed because now yes there not only did they break the treat they no secret treaties was one of the first things they did and they all these treaties from World War I came out uh the secret treaties at France England had signed before the war so it was you see that came out and uh the German treaties came out so that was but it was economic in the sense that in the United States we had a lot of strikes going on domestically we’d had strikes going on since the 1870s but there was a a worldwide sentiment for Revolution and the workers socialist uh socialist movement it infected France it infected England I mean it’s well known and Germany was very much uh moving towards a a workers Revolution yeah so was the most scary thing to woodro Wilson it was the Russians are going to destabilize the whole world and Churchill was right there and he wasn’t a leader but certainly the English felt the same way they were the leaders of World War I so they they they had a stake in getting rid of Russia that’s why the starmer’s recent comment the other day about punishing Putin to the maximum is very striking to me the British have led the charge against Russia forever that gets back to 1990 NATO expansion and then in 1997 brazinski lays it out in his book The Grand chess board which uh fi and liby and Hadley were also writing about just at the same time and what binski says in the grand chess board is that if you can separate Ukraine from Russia then Russia will never be a Eurasian superpower again they had a strategy for doing exactly what they did for quite some time before that this is not something that they just thought up in 2014 do you ever feel like you can’t trust the things you hear or read like every news source is hollowed distorted or clearly just propaganda lying to you well you’re not imagining it if the last few years have proven anything it’s that Legacy exists to distort the truth and to control you to gatekeep information from the public instead of letting you know what’s actually going on they don’t want you to know but there is however a publication that fights this that is not propaganda one that we read every month and have for many years it’s called in Primus it’s from Hillsdale College in Michigan and Primus is a free speech digest that features some of the best Minds in the country addressing the questions that actually matter the ones that are not addressed in the Washington Post or on NBC news the best part of it it is free no cost whatsoever no strings attached they just send it to you Hillsdale will send in Primus right to your house no charge all you got to do is ask go to Tucker for hillsdale.com And subscribe for free today that’s Tucker for hillsdale.com the only way that stays a democracy is if the citizenry is informed you can’t fight tyranny if you don’t know what’s going on in Primus helps it’s free don’t wait sign up now so I’ll you know Putin as well as any American or you spend at least as much time with him as any uh living American characterize what he’s like if you would yeah I I might just I finish my point it’s a complicated I just we’re talking about why I just feel the economics are crucial to understand in the sense that the fear of uh Russian Revolution affecting American workers was gigantic workers started to immigrate to Russia in the 1920s to work there conditions were supposed to be better we talk about it in the book uh and America was moving away from the capitalist ideal that existed I think that plays a huge role coming after World War II also after World War I we of course there’s that World War I leads to World War II in my mind but let’s jump to World War II after World War II they were terrified the Republicans were terrified that the depression would return the Depression had been a horrible experience for many Americans they were poor they had nothing they were terrified that it would come again yeah so the whole concept started up in the Congress of 45 with the Republicans turning winning they had they won a lot of seats right 46 yeah and they’re talking about an economy a war economy all of a sudden like keeping people at full employment what are we going to do with all these men coming back and and the women have taken their jobs we got to keep people working so we’re going to get into this military business and that’s what we did off and on we did it through the era up to where Eisenhower says in 1960 you know he’s built the greatest nuclear force and army of all time he has in 1960 we have how many Warheads we had 185 icbms and the Russians had four yeah yeah but I’m talking about in 1960 when Kennedy comes into we increase it by a thousand and the Joint Chiefs the Air Force wanted 10,000 Joint Chiefs wanted 3,000 I think it was and mmar said the lowest number we can get away with is 1,000 so that but from the Soviet perspective they saw the United States was already ahead between 10 to1 and 100 to1 in every category and now they see us adding a thousand more icbms so the Kremlin interpreted that the US Was preparing for a first strike against the Soviet Union which is part of the reason why they put the missiles into Cuba to try to offset that at least to some degree you know but again you know Kennedy got a briefing on July 20th 1961 about a a secret advaned preemptive strike Nuclear Strike to wipe out the Soviet Union and China and and Kennedy walked out of that Midway through the briefing and he turned to Dean Rusk and said and we call ourselves the human race he lists are gave it and what one of the people there said I think it was Rosell G Patrick says he gave it as if he was talking to kindergarteners and Kennedy was so disgusted with it and the thinking behind the idea that we were going to have a preemptive surprise nuclear strike unprovoked against the Soviet Union but there are military people who were thinking that way as there are today I mean the the um bulletin Atomic scientists had an article on August 20th there were two interesting articles Sanger had one in the New York Times that day saying that the United States is preparing to fight a 3r nuclear war against Russia China and North Korea and win that and the same day the buling atomic scientist came out with an article saying that there is still planners in the Pentagon who believe that we can win a nuclear war and should plan for that what would that mean to win a nuclear war it’s Insanity it doesn’t mean anything anything well that’s why you should read this book is very important because there is this Annie Jacobson’s book there no partial there’s no partial victory in this book it’s impossible once it gets it’s a chain reaction once this thing starts there are so many different aspects to it it’s a bureaucracy beyond belief the names all the names of all the systems we have protecting ourselves one thing it’s it’s Clockwork it’s so rare if if this if it hang we don’t have a a fail safe is what I’m trying to say we really don’t so what does it look like once the chain reaction begins oh she describes it beautifully minute by minute she talks about what’s going to happen to you me and forget about Los Angeles forget about New York forget those they’re gone the Pentagon has been trying a war game limited nuclear war for decades and it never ends up it a limited nuclear war I mean at what point does it stop it always keeps going till the everything gone and then nuclear winter is something we discovered in what year Sean came up with the idea in the early 80s early they went through but they if anything and then he got attacked by the Wall Street Journal and others for bad science which is and but the the latest scientific findings are that Sean and Company actually downplayed the effects of nuclear so what is nuclear winter nuclear winter for example now the latest studies show that limited nuclear war between India and Pakistan yes in which 100 Hiroshima siiz nuclear weapons would be used would push 5 million tons of smoke soot and debris into the atmosphere it would encircle the stratosphere within two weeks block the sun’s Rays from getting to the Earth temperatures would plummet to freezing on the earth much of the agriculture would be destroyed and a limited nuclear warp of a 100 Hiroshima size weapons could kill up to two billion people two billion if there was a but we don’t have a hundred we’ve got 12,000 and they’re not Hiroshima size many of them are 7 to 70 times the size of the Hiroshima bomb and so if there was a large scale use it would the cities would would burn and would send up so much s that would block the sun’s Rays for years and we might not survive as a species the likely is that all large life forms would probably die off some people might be able to get under the ground uh you know we have a mind shaft like that was the idea in fail sayfe kubri didn’t know anything about nuclear winter when he was he did the movie but he had the underground system being described by the doctor strange left remember yes by the way you should I I did a clip I showed strange left to Putin Dr uh Dr Strange I showed it to I wanted them to sit through that climax to had he seen it before he’s no he never heard of it I don’t think and he sat through it with me and it’s on film his reaction is yes this is very realistic yeah it could happen but now our weapons are even much bigger much bigger much worse yeah but he was he said yeah this is real although back in the 60s we’re actually building bigger nuclear weapons than we are today the Russians tested that 50 m Megaton weapon the SAR B and it could have been 100 T if they’ wanted to underground I’m not sure if it was an underground test so what do you think Putin’s view of nuclear war oh he he knows he’s a very realistic man this is serious when he he talk he doesn’t he doesn’t he talks very straightforwardly and I think that’s we don’t understand that our language is a little more rhetorical than his yes he’s he’s pretty uh consistent he said this is a red line in Ukraine and he always has maintained it and he went to war for it the red line being NATO up against his being the Russian minority in in Ukraine and they moved into donbas donbas and uh lugansk were the issues at that time now that was that was what was its sake yes they promised the ukrainians promised to Minsk one and Min two they promised to respect the autonomy of those people they never did they were started killing them and that there was terrorism be Ukraine changed in 14 after maidan it became truly a dangerous country because they had a lot of zealots in the government they weren’t they weren’t uh Nazis but they were a lot of people like that who were working with the ukrainians and and terrifying the Russians uh I I don’t know you saw my movie we been Ukraine in Winter Ukraine it’s about that much and and how these people got into power that was a violation of the neutrality of Ukraine which had existed since the end of the Cold War it’s a sad story because we wanted it it was our entree we didn’t we Obama said we want neutrality we want this and that we want to have a good relationship and meanwhile he betrayed it he betrayed it with the they my D broke into violence I don’t know if you know all the details but yes there was a lot of killing of the the protesters and the evidence is really pointing heavily to the uh Neo fascists there who came in and shot these people from these rooftops that were controlled by the the uh Ukrainian side so it’s a very uh sad story let me take it back just a little bit of course because in 2008 that’s when the United States called for Ukraine and Georgia to enter NATO right and that was clearly Crossing Russia’s Red Line in fact our then US ambassador to Russia was William Burns now the head of the CIA Burns writes a secret memo back to the White House titled net means net Stone cross Russia’s red lines about Ukraine in in NATO and that’s where things begin to change Putin was Furious he actually came went to the NATO meeting and was had been reaching out to the US since 9/11 I mean he was the first foreign leader to actually contact the White House and to offer assistance and he did help us in you in Afghanistan originally and then what do we do in 2002 we abandoned the ABM Treaty he was that was that was a horrible blow to them then we invade Iraq uh which they were totally opposed to and so then the relations begin to deteriorate uh I was saying before about Crow hammer in 2002 he revisits his idea of the unipolar moment says I was wrong in 1990 it’s not the unipolar moment it’s the unipolar era and the us is going to dominate the world for the foreseeable future it could be a 100 years not 30 or 40 years and that’s when they all the neocons started coming out of the frame they started appearing everywhere and saying the importance of American Empire that we’re gonna re we’re going to change the chessboard when Wesley Clark went to the Pentagon they told them we had plans to O to have regime change in seven different countries yes and what was on that list Iraq Iran Syria Libya Libya yeah I mean you go through Iran yeah and so that was the game plan what’s happening now in Syria was part of a game plan Iran was they wereit Iran crucial there Sudan Somalia they had a lot of different countries we were going to over return and they had this Vision that we could do it the on January 5th 2003 the New York Times Sunday magazine section big headline American Empire get used to it I mean they weren’t even hiding it they were proud about it at that point until things started to go Haywire in Afghanistan and Iraq and and then finally Libya that was a little later also include Serbia go back to 999 well yeah the Russians were Furious about what happened in Serbia can can I ask not to digress but what was the point of the intervention in Serbia the post Yugoslav interventions the we we announced it as we’re we were catching The Butchers the people who were dictators in Serbia yeah and uh that was our excuse but essentially it was a much more important destabilization of we bombed a city in Europe yes Belgrade for 99 days I mean think about it we came into the war and called it it’s it’s a complicated War there were two peace treaties don’t have time here to go into it but essentially we wanted to balkanize Yugoslavia which we did yes the same way we’re going to balkanize Syria now yes this is American policy you divide conquer divide conquer balkanize it cut it up into Kosovo is a violation at the deepest level of everything we’re talking about we talk about the rules-based order yes they had a a referendum that is sh that was a little bit uh shady and we we said they’re free you know they can they they’re they’re no longer part of Serbia that kind of kovo was a gangster State what became it’s a whole I was there I don’t know I can’t tell you it’s Grim what happened to what’s interesting though is as that was happening and NATO was bombing and West Clark was becoming famous and all that I don’t think I heard a single debate in the States over why we were doing this did we not much no but in Russia you would have heard very very different something like 96% of the Russians thought that what was going on there was a war crime yes I mean the Russians were totally opposite View and the US was establishing the rules based International order which meant instead of going through the United Nations which they couldn’t have gotten it through they did it on their own militarily yes and don’t forget in Iraq when we went in there Germany France and Russia did not join they did not agree with that the Schroeder and Old Europe Iraq that’s important because what’s happened now is the opposite France and Germany are are on leading the charge so there’s been a change in values and you say where I don’t know why but I think there’s some kind of there NATO is not the one but it’s sort of an elitism that has come into being with in Europe an elitism of the leaders coming from a university where they’re they’re train to be leaders but they all think alike that’s what surprises me I don’t frankley farage whatever he says he’s different at least he says something is different Leen says something different so that’s why these people are appealing to people because they’re saying they has to be some peace there this is madness and it’s why they’re the most attacked that’s part of it too the media is in on it and they’re very very critical of people who who differ in this country you’ve notice the sensor ship has gotten far you you suffered from it yeah I suffered from it I mean it’s you’re you’re insulated because you’re evic tenure but uh how many Oscars have you won uh I won three you’ve won three a long time ago right um no but essentially I got cut off because I did the Putin interviews didn’t help me in in Hollywood but you’d been cut off before then I think hadn’t you no my my ability to make films was choked a little you know you know there is after 2000 things changed in the United States because we became the victim uh we were suddenly the patriotism of the soldiers we started Pearl Harbor black ship Blackhawk Down all the films were were different mentality than what I was presenting which was a reality I thought to the American public that this military has to be why are we doing these military editions overseas this is like in Vietnam this is what was my main point I kept going at it and going at it and I guess all of a sudden it became okay but the people never voted there was no candidate there was no election that said I’m against any Empire I want to bring it back like back in William bren’s William Jennings Bryan’s back in 1898 I don’t want Empire we never got the choice we we swallowed it let me give a different timeline on Oliver’s history that I I see it from uh I mean Oliver was walking on water in Hollywood with platoon Wall Street born on the 4th of July Y and then he made JFK and then everything changed and they start attacking JFK s eight months before the film was produced remember based on a stolen first draft of the script at at the New York Times Los Angeles Times all that they they were all going after him and a conspiracy theorist and you know and it’s a very controversial movie which takes a lot of risks uh and Oliver said admitted at the time he didn’t have all the answers but he wanted to get the questions out there and make people think about some of these issues but at that point he went from being Hollywood’s Golden Boy to being the conspiracy Monger I remembered very well in the late night Comics who are always tools of the existing order jumped in but why do you think that film and that topic I mean because Americans had already disagreed with the Warren Commission yes mean even before Oliver’s movie came out the overwhelming majority of Americans thought didn’t think that Lee Harvey alwald acted alone they didn’t from the very beginning find that credible at all in fact four of the seven members of the warrant commission didn’t think that or thought that there was likely a second second gun nor Robert Kennedy nor Lynden Johnson uh conell Jackie Kennedy there so many people Hil bogs Fidel Castro Charles deal various British leaders Harold McMillan did you ever talk to Castro you knew Castro yeah sure what did he say about it oh it’s uh he was so sad because he really was like Kennedy and he was hoping for a deal they were in backdoor negotiations Kennedy understood the Cuban Revolution and he said eloquent about it he understood why the people were that Cuba had been the most corrupt island in the American Empire and the Caribbean since the plaum end in 2001 uh 1901 yeah but a lot of this is economic let’s not lose sight of that you see what they got after World War II was an economic Empire which is it was working people were investing in the war economy and they were prosperous yes but you saw the budgets grew and grew and grew here we are now with a trillion dollar uh defense budget right which is insane because we have how many B abroad 800 bases that was never the intention of Eisen Hower or any of those people to have to control the world to dominate every place in the world this is Asia and Europe but can and South America this is a gigantic Empire do you realize how busy they are every day trying to run this thing everything is coming I personally I believe there’s an invasion coming up it’s either going to be Iran or but I hope not Israel is a proxy Army for us certainly Trump supports them you know that Trump supports Trump is very zealous about Israel scary but also don’t overlook Venezuela which is still the one of the richest countries in the world with all its oil some people believe that is an easy easy target for for Trump to knock off I pray not because it’s going to be a battle but this doesn’t end is what I’m saying they plot every day they there’s imagine the world map you got the China the China Challenge right sending ships constantly stating our Supremacy right in the W in the Seas freedom of the SE navigation but and China uh is it’s it’s crazy I mean I understand economically take it on be competitive with China fine but this we can be economically friendly we in other words we can be competitors I don’t see why we can’t be in business together as with Russia Russia was a capitalist country it’s no longer a communist country yes so as much as we hate communism it doesn’t make sense to to antagonize Russia they can be our partners in climate change in so many ways they nuclear energy industry is one of the best in the world as is China they can teach us we can build smrs in quantity if we wanted to we can really solve climate change we don’t have to sit here victims of it but this is all this is Kennedy thinking this is what we need we need leadership we need a a deal somebody who has a vision of the world Trump to some degree has a vision Oliver is stressing the economic roots of all this I do yes I wanted to go back because in 1948 George Kennan lays it out in a secret memo George Kennan who was the architect of the Cold War writes a memo says we have 6.3% of the world’s population yet we control 50% of the world’s wealth he said the challenge before us today is to maintain this position of disparity and we’re not going to do it with idealistic slogans we’re going to do it with pure power Concepts he later regretted that he later regretted the Mr X article uh and and he becomes really very very worried about the threat of nuclear war in his later life and he lived to over a hundred years old uh but in ‘ 97 he condemned he he condemned Clinton condemned the NATO expansion for sure in 99 Clinton expanded NATO yeah and uh Kenan was horrified horrified so we were at a meeting here at TCN the other day and I looked around the room and every other person had a kind of Ruddy Vitality of Pink Cheeks alertness Bright Eyes full mental acuity and a cheerfulness you could almost smell and I asked why does everyone look so good and part of the answer of course is they like what we do for a living it’s really interesting we think it’s important but another reason everyone looks so good is because they had all had a great night sleep I’m not making this up almost everybody here uses a new sleep technology from a company called Eight sleep they sent it to us and everyone here loves it it’s called The Pod it’s a high-tech mattress cover effectively that you add to your existing bed you don’t need a new bed or anything like that you just throw this over what you have what it does is it adjusts the temperature of your bed warmer or cooler depending on what you want and it maintains an ideal sleeping environment all night long so I didn’t know this but as you progress through different phases of sleep your body’s needs change and eight sleep automatically keeps things exactly where they should be in The Sweet Spot through the entire night it’s been proven to increase the quality of your sleep the amount you sleep every night it improves your recovery time from physical exertion and it may even improve your cognitive performance and enhance enhance your overall health it seems to be doing that in our office so it learns and adapts to your sleep patterns over time and automatically adjusts temperatures throughout the night through each phase of sleep and it does this independently for each sleeper on either side of the bed that’s pretty cool so you can sleep well and feel much better and be more effective the next morning as we are here try it for yourself go to 8sleep.com Tucker use the promo code Tucker to get an extra 350 bucks off the Pod 4 ultra you can try it with zero obligation for a month and if you don’t like it just send it back again that’s 8sleep.com Tucker better sleep today and look great in your morning meeting ings as our guys do yeah but but you’re you’re arguing that it’s more than just economics that are driving economics it’s geopolitics it’s economic military ideological domination I don’t think it’s an either or some people make that mistake and say it’s this or it’s that I mean there are a lot of different people involved in planning this and they’re motivated by different things no I I say that was the original reason we were antagonistic to Russia yes it wasn’t military it was economic because we had strikes in this country and we were trying to control labor and the the large corporations were in a a dead a deathly struggle with with labor and up until the end of World War II taed heartly that was a big issue there were so many strikes during the war people don’t even take that into account there were there was a huge strikes in Detroit cars steal and after the war it was continuing and until Taft Harley came along which allowed them to close down on strike that was dangerous to the National Security I think uh but in the 30s that’s what motivated Roosevelt turn to the left so the co out of Economics too it’s very much so the labor movement was huge in the United States in the 30s the formation of the CIO the organizing of Steel Auto I mean all of the big industries were were organizing and who were the leaders of the organizing the Communists you know there was a reason why they had to shut down the Communist Party during the quote quote McCarthy period and McCarthy is a latecomer to McCarthyism but right it starts in 47 and and Truman according to Clark Clifford his main domestic policy advisor Truman said they said Truman knew that this was baloney all this stuff about communist infiltration but the Republicans started to attack in 1946 the the chair of the Republican party in 46 say it’s the choice between republicanism and communism and and so we’re beginning this anti communist hysteria very very early after the war and then Truman takes the bait and has the Loyalty hearings and which leads gradually into McCarthyism so first in 47 first they say that the real threat is the at Atomic scientists but they quickly decide that the one they’re going to investigate first is Hollywood right so then they they have the the Hollywood 10 and then all those other hearings that were taking place because they were very concerned even then about people who might influence American thinking and Hollywood was a hotbed of leftist kind of an irony though that Oliver Stone after winning three Oscars would be excommunicated from Hollywood by the same people for thought I didn’t get excommunicated yet please that you would be even CR vigorously criticized is a little strange no it’s very hard for me I mean a military type theme these kind of things I’m talking about with you I couldn’t do this as a movie now I could do the Putin interviews because that was a documentary yes and uh I I could do nuclear energy because I cared about that that was a documentary pro- nuclear energy so this I’m interested in ideas but in terms of drama I have to curb it I I can’t go to where my imagination wants to go why well they say to you they never tell you the truth they tell you too controversial too uh too political too this to that you know I don’t think I’ve lost my touch but I have to live with it it’s okay I live with it I’m writing a book another book I wrote a book A Memoir a first part of my life I’m going to write another one from 40 on the age of 40 to wherever I am now so are there any filmmakers left in Hollywood who can take on the biggest questions like the power of the thing they don’t take on the Oppenheimer is an interesting movie I liked it as a movie I love it there are some flaws in it you know the big flaw being that Truman is is is honestly pictured knocking Oppenheimer remember that that’s a great scene in the movie but uh what What’s ignored in the film is for example General Groves Leslie Groves is one of the most anti-communist uh generals we ever had total cold warrior from beginning to end he said quote the quotes in the in the book uh from the beginning the Manhattan Project project was created to destroy to address Ro the Russian Empire you know the line yeah of course nothing more it was it was not about Japan it was about Russia it says from from two weeks after the time I was appointed to head the Manhattan Project I treated as if the Soviets were the enemy and that the the project was directed in that way and so the bombing of Japan was really aimed as a message to the Soviets well yeah the Russians were in the war at that time they we knew the Japan was finished but we had to keep going in those crucial few days to establish the the weapon and uh Leslie Groves I mean Matt Damon played him uh very good performance but I don’t know if what that’s not Leslie Groves it’s not Les that’s the most warm and fuzzy lesli Groves you’re ever going to see and it doesn’t go into the issue of whether why we Oppenheimer I don’t know I’m sure Oppenheimer got an inkling of it later no yes at the time yeah but he said that when he testified he said we didn’t know beans about the military situation we didn’t know that Japan could have been made to surrender without using the bomb you know so Oppenheimer later effectively apologized for supporting the use of the bomb and then he got into trouble that’s when he was then he opposed the hydrogen bomb once you cross the Rubicon you have to cross So speaking you’re crossed than Rubicon yes I I have crossed it um but when you came back uh from interviewing Putin for your documentary and it was released what was the reaction like quiet in La people they don’t talk uh to me publicly they it’s almost behind closed doors right did you hesitate before doing it not really cuz it was fascinating new material my producer set up no I was doing Snowden in 2013 which was a very brave movie because we’re dealing with a man who was exiled who I thought was a hero and was treated I agree was a traitor so I wanted to make that movie and making that movie I had to go to Moscow to finish it and I met Putin there and we talked about Snowden first because that was where we met and what he said about Snowden is he says in the movie is it’s very true he didn’t like what Snowden did no but and he would have punished him the same probably the same way but he understood the mechanics of it uh meanwhile uh we got to know each other and uh my producer said let’s do a Let’s do an interview with him because he’s a crucial figure right now yeah we didn’t know what was coming you know we didn’t know about the uh the uh the coup and at that point so we set up these interviews and we were talking the coup had just happened at that point so he was upset and I as an American didn’t really know the situation so I was treating it like you know Ukraine okay it’s what’s the big deal I mean it’s another one of the countries like like like Georgia I thought yeah it’s still worse pack country like Romania and he looked no it’s not a big deal for us Mr Stone and he explained in the movie what I think he says that on tape uh and he I understand Ukraine better and better but at first I didn’t I talked to ukrainians it’s uh it was evident I mean it was coming this this is very dangerous it was a it was a firecracker from 2014 on because it was a violation of at the heart of the Soviet Empire of the Russian Empire that underbelly is where the invasions happened so it seems like we’re relying now on Putin’s restraint it’s not just him it’s Russia there if he goes if he’s out and if Biden gets his wish and all these nutcases want to remove him take him out fine kill him but he’s not going to Solve IT Russia is Russia it’s going to stay loyal to what it’s believes in there is a what they don’t have a democratic vote but they have a consensus if Putin was not doing what the public the people wanted he’d be out that’s the way it works it takes maybe a couple years more what but it doesn’t that’s the way Russia Works they if thear didn’t work out they get rid of him you know and they shot him too remember that’s one of the reasons the Japanese were terrified of the Russians and why they surrendered cuz they didn’t want the Russians to invade the Homeland that was a big fear uh but uh no the Russian people are very strong but they they’re passive so they they talk in certain ways you know we believe the Moscow crowd but the Moscow crowd doesn’t talk for Russia it’s it’s a bigger consensus but you’re making an important point though that we are in many ways dep dependent on Putin’s restraint at this point absolutely because we keep in today just made a statement that the US keeps crossing all of Russia’s red lines and if they keep doing this this is going to explode I mean Biden for a long time refused to give permission to Ukraine to use the attack and missiles and he said that it it would be too provocative and could possibly lead to a much broader war between the United States and Russia and he refused to do it but that he did with every other weapon system he finally caved in and so Ukraine has struck Russia several times now with these attack and missiles inside of Russia the long range Army missiles uh and then you got the British Stormtrooper Storm Shadow missiles you got the French missiles the Scout missiles the German ones haven’t been used yet and in response to that Russia lower changed this nuclear Doctrine and said that they lowered it and said that if Russia is attacked by a country with the the support of a nuclear power then they’re going to consider that an attack by both countries meaning the United States and Ukraine and both countries become legitimate targets for all of Russia’s weapons meaning nuclear weapons and so far then how did then how did Russia respond with the oresic missile this brand new Hypersonic medium-range missile and they was devastating because it goes at 10 times the speed of sound and it’s a hyper Sonic missile and they can’t be shot down and they used it once so far but there the warnings that they could take out keev uh or at least the leadership there they could hit the base in Poland where wherever they want so just for some context what is the difference between the bomb the atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima and the current nuclear Arsenal like how much more advanced are nuclear weapons now they are so much more advanced in fact Obama who won the Nobel Peace Prize for his speech in prag for existing in 2009 calling for nuclear abolition he’s the one who put into process the policy of modernizing America’s nuclear Arsenal it was a trade-off with the senator Kyle from Arizona in order to get them to support the new Star treaty and so what is modernizing the Delivery Systems and the weapons mean making them more efficient and more lethal and then Trump doubled down on that in his nuclear posture review in 2018 and so Obama said we’re going to spend a trillion dollars over 30 years to modernize now it’s closer to 2 trillion and we’re doing it but not only is the United States modernizing all nine nuclear powers are modernizing their arsenals and for the first time you know we at the peak of the Cold War in 1986 we had had about 70,000 nuclear weapons in the world we got it down to now 12,000 but for the first time we’re increasing the arsenals you know we’ve been trying to get rid of these hellish weapons since they were first started and initially even Eisenhower supported giving them to the UN letting the UN destroy them and Eisenhower also was the only president who’s openly critical of the US dropping the atomic bombs in 1945 you know and he criticized at the what he said he said when Stimson briefed him at poam that the United States was about to use the atomic bomb Eisenhower wrote on a couple occasions he said I got more and more depressed just listening to him but I didn’t volunteer anything because my war in Europe was over then he asked me what I thought and I told him I was against it for two reasons number one the Japanese were already defeated and trying to surrender and we didn’t need to use it and number two I hated to see our country be the first to use such a weapon the US had eight five-star Admirals in Generals in 1945 seven of the eight are officially on the record saying the atomic bombs be militarily unnecessary morally reprehensible or both and the other La the eighth was Marshall who said that the Soviet invasion alone would likely leverage the uh Japanese into Surrender by itself so they all knew that the bombs were necessary Truman knew it as well as anybody when he went to had lunch with Stalin at potam on July 17th he goes back and writes in his journal said Russia Stalin will be in the War by August 15 finny Japs when that occurs he writes home to his wife best the next day say the Russians are coming in we’ll end the war a year sooner now think of all the kids who won’t be killed he knew it he refers the intercepted telegram on July as the telegram from the Emperor asking for peace they knew that the Japanese were defeated and if there had been an invasion what was the estimate of casualties the original one for Marshall well the original one they were talking only like 20,000 and then the highest one for the original Lola gay Z that we could find was 46,000 Americans would be lost but in his Memoir Truman says I was told by Marshall that we could lose a half million American boys in an invasion it’s a myth I mean that’s but that’s just what kids are taught in school Bush brought it up to HW Bush said millions we could lose Millions a tough calculating myology these presidents right the retroactive justification so do you think um that you know you said the world’s nuclear Arsenal has dramatically declin but it’s going to be increasing now but do you think in that decline is of course at the end of the Soviet Empire in 91 do you think that all of those Warheads were accounted for we certain that they were destroyed I don’t have any evidence that they weren’t okay so um but I I mean I’ve heard speculation I have about that yes but I I I don’t know that there are any out there breaking news Trump intends to nominate cash Patel to serve as the FBI director the level of corruption in Washington DC was not wholly new to me but I also didn’t expect it at that level is it your expectation though that cash Patel will pursue investigations against your political enemies if they were crooked if they did something wrong if they uh have broken the law Comey the former deputy Attorney General of the Department of Justice literally hijacked the system of justice and at the time of course we didn’t know this but he was running Russia game they went after me you know they went after me and I did nothing wrong here’s the thing that I think people need to understand the information operation is not mocking bird it’s everybody [Music] how much do you think Putin worries about nuclear war a lot I can’t tell you I mean he’s a cool customer as you know he’s seen a lot he’s been there for 23 years I mean he’s knows every world leader he’s seen six American Presidents come and go I would say he he qualifies as a Statesman and a wise man yes and we don’t pay any attention to him we should we should respect him uh uh he has the experience he understands the American system how it sends new leaders in and they change the policies all the time so he but he thinks there is a deep State and that deep state in the United States yeah and that and that’s what he has to deal with and that deep state is very dangerous because and when we started our conversations over three years it was our partners the Americans and I got irritated I said why you keep saying our partners the Americans they don’t express these sentiments at all towards you you’re considered a murderer by Mr B or and uh they think you kill people you know that you’re some kind of character out of a James Bond uh spy movie they keep talking about KGB ignoring the fact that George W Bush George HW Bush was the head of the CIA everybody I know in Russia everybody I talk to there says they wanted they wish we could have friendlier relations between the United States and Russia they all feel that way you know who fears nuclear weapons nuclear bombs Trump trump said recently read he says we have never been closer to World War II than we are today under Joe Biden a global conflict between nuclear armed Powers would mean death and destruction on a scale unmatched in human history that’s what Donald Trump said recently you know so he he thinks that giving the ukrainians permission to use the attack M the way we are is crazy I haven’t heard an American president say anything like that since Kennedy S you said you’re talking about Russia you said it is a Christian culture what does that mean yeah they’re they’re a strong Christian culture very much this concept of a of of uh they don’t interesting thing you they go to church they don’t sit at all during the service they stand the whole time it’s that’s serious too if you remember going to Sunday school so we had more Protestant where we don’t we’re divided culture and there are so many sects there’s the Jewish sect there’s Arabs there’s this and then we’re all into different things you know some people are atheists some people are don’t know agnostics this that they feel the Russians feel that we have lost touch with Christianity and that we’re moving towards a more of a satanic culture and I can understand why because we have embraced the bomb we’ve embraced regime change corruption in all these countries we we believe in the dollar changing controlling the world they don’t see hope in our way of life they see people who are exhausting themselves competitively and dropping dead and you know our a our heal as means told you in your interview yes we spend more on health than anybody and we die sooner our expectation life expectancy is very low and our quality of life is not up to the other countries you know Europe is better so there is a lot of big question about America we say we’re you know we we see ourselves as a great country and I think in many ways we are and I and I’d like to see it but I think our greatness is tied to some humility in the sense of what what we were fighting for Abraham Lincoln in holding the country Together made some of the greatest speeches and a purpose of life but he was a very strong Christian remember that yes very strong sense of God and that you know The Grapes of Wrath are Marching on so so you think that Russia sees this as a conflict between a Christian culture and a secular culture ours being secular I think some people do yeah Putin goes to church he’s he but he doesn’t sell me he’s not an evangelist or anything like that yes you no it’s uh interesting but I you asked they fundamentally have to be respected you people who really study Russian culture love it I’ve saw Americans over there they love it they they read the literature they understand the culture they speak Russian uh it’s a you have a Russian background you tell me your story well um I’ve got a lot of friends who are Russian historians and Russian experts and my friends in Russia when we talk about religion they say after the collapse of the Soviet Union everybody got baptized but nobody actually goes to church so I mean they’re religious in a in a different sense and it’s part of their national identity and Heritage but I’m not sure that they’re Believers in that way and as you were saying unlike the United States we’ve got Catholics and all kinds of Protestants and Jews and Muslims and Hindus I mean this they’ve got much more of an identity that revolves around their religious Heritage the whole concept of what Rome I mean Rome moved East yeah new the new Rome mhm and that they were the inheritors of our Empire and that’s where they fought the Turks and all that it was all these conflicts but it’s interesting what’s going on with Ukraine because they changed the rules in the church they formed a new church they’re no longer an orthodox Russian yes well they don’t have religious freedom there and they’re accusing the Russians of distorting their religion yeah but this is very strange I it’s so ukra ukine is also this is It’s a religious battle too they they changed everything Russian do you know that zalinsky didn’t even speak Ukrainian he learned it quick he learned it quickly in his yeah so they they really banned the language they they really went against Russia they tried to root it out they hated Russ some people hated Russians and they they turned it into a campaign like Hitler a Hitler campaign of genocide against Russia Russia y the that war in donbass started in 2014 15 yes and it and maybe 16 but it got worse and worse and it was on the in 22 when the thing blew up they were on the verge of invading donbas they had 100,000 troops on the border the Ukrainian troops well trained by the Americans with all our work there our CIA our our advisors we had really trained that Russ that Ukrainian Army and that was a deliberate deliberate manipulation we did not abide by the treaty the treaty was intended for peace make a an interim peace but as as Merkel said the ukrainians sought as a way to use the time to build up theiry land also said that to reconquer donbass that’s what they wanted to do and they would have killed a lot more people what how do you suppose the incoming Trump Administration can fix this well he he announces everything so that every Biden is counter moving him on every every regard it’s very dangerous you can’t say what you’re going to do in a new Administration especially this one right I it’s what do you do I mean how do you I don’t know but this Administration much like the Biden Administration we were talking about Biden earlier and Oliver was talking surprised by how hawkish Biden is but Biden’s always been a cold warrior and and very much of a hawk uh and he came to office with 18 top advisors from the center for New American Security now these are the people like Sullivan who are the China Hawks many of them were the people behind the Asia pivot under Hillary Clinton and Obama but and but Ukraine got in the way because it was China who they wanted to go after but you and and even Rand has proposal talking about or report saying titled avoiding a long war in Ukraine because they want to get after China now the Trump people are also much more hawkish toward China and Iran than they are toward Ukraine so I think that e my my fear is that they’ll successfully end Ukraine and then turn their fire elsewhere except that that Trump did invite Xi Jinping to come to the inaugural inauguration and I think it is showing some signs of moderating it’s economic with with Trump that’s what I think well then transactional so it’s possible we’re not going to go that way that’s the only hope we have to make a deal right make it make a deal with Iran what would that look like we’re going to have to inherit Ukraine we’re just going to have to pay it keep paying and paying and pay we got to keep it up and somehow he’ll make some kind of phony State you know like create like a la or Vietnam yeah kind of a half State and well 20 keep it alive spend a lot of taxpayer money and it’s a front a front for what for uh nato in a way but you know they they won’t they they Ukraine is to say nato free it does and so does Georgia otherwise it’s going to be the Russians won’t accept that yes we have they have to understand why is Nat even alive I mean it was a defensive Alliance I don’t understand we formed NATO because the Russians were going to invade Europe is that correct basically it they never invaded Europe they never could they never had the intention to and Mr as I said to you earlier Camala Harris said something so stupid like the moment they win in Ukraine they’re going to March into Poland is nuts that’s what that the whole foreign policy establishment is saying that and I agree with Oliver it’s nuts do they believe they can’t even defeat Ukraine they want to take on NATO I mean this makes no logical sense at all and for Putin Ukraine has a special meaning special history for Russia yes you know and it doesn’t want Poland or Romania I mean this doesn’t make any sense he’s not at all that way he didn’t do anything like that he was in office for 23 years what did he do very little in terms of expansion it was just just their borders their security that’s what it’s about their security let me Thrive let me build up my country economically let me do this and that’s what he did with Russia Russia did very well up until the war this idea that he wants to recreate the Soviet Empire he said anyone who doesn’t miss the Soviet Union has no heart anyone who wants to recreate it has no brain that’s what it’s a good line but you know but they are hurting their own economy Again by this Mass mve expansion of arms production that’s what brought them down in the 80s really they’re spending 25 to 40% of their budget on arms and now they’re doing that again so even though in the long and short run they’re thriving economically unlike Europe in the long run it’s going to hurt them so it’s very much in their interest to end this war it’s in everybody’s interest if you’re pro pro Ukrainian what is the point of it for example after the attack M were given permission every bid gave permission I was watching CNN and they had Bolton and they had stries and Clark and they all said uh too little too late giving using the attack M that it’s great that we’re doing it but it’s too little too late what these people are saying is they’re willing to risk nuclear war over something that they know is not going to make any difference for the ukrainians anyway the Ukraine is losing that’s the reality they can’t keep up with Russia they’re outmanned they’re outgunned they’re out strategized at this point in the settlement do you think it’s as simple as telling the Russians no NATO that’ll end it no Putin wants a little bit more than that right now oh he wants to keep what he earned yeah he’s going to keep he’s got four provinces that they said incorporated into Russia so Lan stes uh kerzan and zapar and he’s going to want at least as much of them as his army controls he’s going to want more but the they’re bargaining position might be they might give up the parts that they don’t control and it for uh no arms no foreign arms and soldiers in Ukraine no nato in Ukraine and a lasting peace I don’t think they want it the West says oh it’s going to be temporary and then they’re going to just start it up again when they’re ready uh this has been been a terrible War for Russia as well as for Ukraine and if you’re sympathetic to Ukraine the last thing you want is going to see this continue because they’re only losing more they’re only in a weaker position and their young men are getting not so young men are getting killed at incredible numbers so if we stop it a year from now what’s going to be different Russia’s going to have more of Ukraine there’ll be more ukrainians dead more economy destroyed on both sides more Russians dead this is an an horrible war that was well America was fine with that that’s what they said weaken Russia weak in Russia we in Russia and build up our armaments industry yes the big five the military contractors are doing great so there was a point in American history when the Congress considered Banning War profiteering yes when did that happen and 1934 1934 uh Gerald NY yeah was a great the n committee hearings in the Senate were an extraordinary moment and it was a reaction to World War I cuz while the America you know what uh Wilson said we want a million volunteers well they got 73,000 because Americans had been watching the World War I in Europe go on for three years they saw the trench warfare they saw the poison gas it was a horrible war and so very few Americans wanted to volunteer so we had a draft instead but afterwards in the 1920s going back to Hollywood they had a lot of fabulous movies about World War I that were passionately anti-war movies like the big parade Wings All Quiet on the Western Front and the the novels all almost all the Americans writers were opposed to the War uh and and and so the American attitude was very negative about World War I so in 1934 Gerald NY proposes uh these hearings and a new legislation to eliminate all profit from war now these bastards are making enormous amounts of profit so that’s such an obvious idea that your um that your National Industry shouldn’t get rich from war yeah because it sets up an incentive for those same Industries to lobby for war which is what we do now um it’s it’s a self-evidently good idea it seems to me what happened to it well then they started to go after Wilson because it was a bip partis an effort on the committee it had front page headlines Gerald NY uh Gerald NY was a senator from Midwest yeah Midwest Midwest republican yeah Progressive or were a lot of progressive anti-war Republicans during World War I and then afterwards in the 20s and 30s one of the greats but there were a lot of them then and they were weren strictly isolation William Boro was was one of the leaders from Idaho Henry Wallace was from Iowa right Henry Wallace was from Iowa and and and so but when they start to go after Truman the Democrats got very defense I after Wilson the Democrats got very defensive and they blew up the hearings even Roosevelt was supportive of what they were calling for in 1934 overwheling public well there various variants on this one was to either tax everything above $110,000 once War began uh anything that people earned over $10,000 would be taxed at either 98% or 100% because the dupants and the Morgans made melons made huge profits out of World War I astronomical profits and you know part of the reason why we got involved in the war at all even though American people did not want to was because we had lent Morgan Banks had lent $2.5 billion to the allies and 100 million to the uh the other side and and so it was clear which side we were going to get involved in what Wilson said when he was criticized because he ran in 1916 as a peace candidate the slogan was we kept America out of the war and then then in 1917 they changed the slogan to it’s the war to end all wars or the war to make the world safe for democracy but Wilson entered it in large part because he knew that if we didn’t then the us would have no hand in in the post-war settlement and he said we have to be in it so that we can shape the post-war world and he came up with the League of Nations which could have been a good idea under certain circumstances uh but this his 14 points were very Progressive but the British and French colonialists were not going to accept it and as Oliver said before when the when the Soviet revolution occurred one of the first thing they did is they broke in and found all the Diplomatic papers which showed the secret treaties between Russ Ria France and Britain to divide up the Middle East you know the problems we’re talking about now Trace back to then to the to the colonialists who controlled the Middle East and but that this was going on all over the world they had this plan the Germans wanted to get involved in the war in part because they were late comers to the Empire in Africa they felt they’ been frozen out of the empires that the British and French and Dutch and Portuguese all all were controlling yeah Wilson wouldn’t meet with in from Vietnam yes famous story yeah yeah there’s an interesting play by Arthur Miller his first play All My Sons you ever see it no yeah oh they made it very it was a big hit before salesman and it was a made into a movie but it’s about war profiteering the father there are two sons and the the older son goes against the father when he finds out that the father has been making defective parts and his brother is killed in the in one of the planes that crashes because they’re defective which happens uh a lot more now than ever because we have such a corrupt system they have crashes of this new F-35 and it’s the biggest boondoggle of all time so it seems like this and that play had a huge impact it was Broadway 19456 you know that was that’s part of the reality of war is that people make money with it and people knew that then at that level and it goes on and on and it’s gotten worse The Profit Gerald n should come out of the woodwork now investig another play that Oliver knows that that also is critical of war profiteering was Waiting for Lefty by Clifford odets you know they’ve also got various episodes about condemning the war profiteering but they failed to get control of the system in 1934 and no one they came close and it was over ly popular at the time and then the Democrats reacted to this allegations against Wilson getting us into the war to help what’s interesting though is that um history now regards anybody who had second thoughts about the first world war and anyone who didn’t want to get into another war in Europe in the 30s as pro-nazi that is how they’re isolationist they’re Pro Hitler do you think that’s a fair characterization you know the kids don’t even know about World War I right that’s really ancient history they hardly know about world hard they know about Vietnam yeah you know alliver fought in Vietnam all volunteer for combat in Vietnam probably the only person to drop out of Yale and volunteer for combat in Vietnam in history no no no I think there are others oh maybe I don’t I doubt it but U you know and I was an anti-war activist during during that period you know but you I was in Hanoi in January and it’s interesting to me because I had Robert mcnamer come into my class some years ago and mcnam said to my students that he accepts that 3.8 million Vietnamese died in the war and I’ve always used that figure because it’s mindboggling but when I was in Hanoi the Vietnamese leaders told me that now the figure that they use is five million Vietnamese so one of the one place that all my students have been is the Vietnam Memorial in Washington DC which you’ve been there and it’s got two walls uh with 4 492 ft long with the names of 8,280 Americans who died and the message is the tragedy of Vietnam is that 58,209 more than 10 miles long and that would be a fitting tribute to the Vietnam but it would sent a whole different message Au and I are invited to okanawa in February by the prefectural government to support the anti-base movement in okanawa another story we could get into uh but uh the okanawa war memorial has the names of all the Okana aans the Japanese the Americans the Brits the Aussies everybody who died there and that would be anti-war Memorial but what the the Vietnam memorial sadly as powerful as it is is giving the wrong message and America is always giving the wrong message when it comes to war so is it strange for you we touched at the outset at and as Oliver put it the complete inversion of American politics but you were you said an anti-war protester during Vietnam then you watch the party you voted for become the war party like what what happened what caused that inversion well the United States foreign policy has been bipartisan yes throughout the Cold War really uh and and so both parties have been war parties uh correct but there was a strong element within the Democratic party Progressive Democrats who were much more anti-war anti- defense spending and wanted to use that money instead for health care and education and infrastructure and the things that people need that actually help people’s lives but it’s become this group think now and even Progressive Democrats who my friends sound so hawkish these days that I don’t recognize them with and the odd things so we had this reversal Trump ran as the anti-war candidate yes Trump ran as the pro labor candidate you know it makes no sense to those of us who grew up I was never a Democrat but I usually voted for the Democrats because they were more Progressive than the Republicans uh but at this point you’ve got two war parties although there’s a stronger faction in the Republican party at this moment who are at least making sense about the nuclear threat and about Ukraine but what I mean what caused that how did Liz Cheney wind up campaigning with KLA Harris and it backfired and it was stupid and you know what really H uh kamalo with the young people was the unquestioning support for Israel I saw with my students they despised the Democrats Gaza is a big issue for this generation and they see it every day on or they were seeing at least for a while on television and the story is you know every day they were digging out babies from under the rubble it was horrible to watch and it was worse if you traveled in other parts of the world they were even more graphic and explicit than they were in the United States this what my kids were watching my students were watching and they were so disgusted with the Democrats for keep on feeding this Israeli War I mean I would say that most of my students were pretty horrified by the October 7th attack that Hamas made and I know I felt very strongly too that I mean you know I I know that they been been badly treated for a long time the Palestinians but what happened on October 7th is unacceptable unforgivable and I can understand why there was a strong reaction but the Israeli response we’re talking like you know for 911 people being ready to do something they had already been brutalizing the people in the West Bank Gaza had been in open air prison for for years already and so the Israeli response is so disproportionate it’s so horrific for those of us who have different history and experience with Israel to see what isra Israel has turned into now uh without any almost no protest against this brutalization of an entire people whether you consider a genocide or just a Slaughter it’s it sickens one and that’s what I found my students and the young people did not vote mean it’s for the first time Trump got a majority of young voters and it wasn’t just young men uh young women also well people like me followed Robert Kennedy too I followed Robert to to Trump’s Camp not that I was Robert was the I was the medium yes he’s I I like what he’s saying and I hope he does it I hope he achieves it whether Trump keeps his word with him we’ll see I I think he will do you know others in the Hollywood who did the same yeah I think there’s a lot of people who went with Kennedy I think a lot to Trump yeah amazing did they talk about for Kennedy so their vote canceled out you know yeah but they they were not going to in California he was kedy was on the ballot but uh he asked all his people to vote in swing States for Trump anyway uh I like people who are shaking up the system who are asking questions and the media is very very hard on these people very hard yes it’s like descent is not allowed anymore this is not the American way do you think he’ll be able to do it Trump will be able to bring reform why not if he’s willing to break with some of the farmer companies and some of the and that’s going to be hard because of money but who knows how it works sometime Trump’s a he’s a he’s a idiosyncratic candidate yes he knows that he is he’s a he’s a he’s a I don’t think he’s a one shot I think there’s there’ll be I think Vance will inherit and people like that they will inherit that what do you think of Vance well I I think he’ll do what Trump once yeah I think that’s important there’s got to be some change if there’s no change in this world where it’s America cannot continue on this course it cannot and it knows it it knows it in its gut you know it I do know it yeah you’re worried but change is good change is good and and you know I sooe my students you know what they lack now they’re very critical they’re very smart analytical there’s no utopianism so many of the young people think that the world that they’ve inherited is what the is all there is going to be and they don’t have any the 60s generation Oliver and I were part of the 60s generation when you were too young but uh or not even born but you know the 6th generation had a vision of making a better world yes and that informed everything we did and we would jokingly refer to what we’re going to do after the revolution you know but we did have a utopian vision for how human beings could live differently the young people now are are even much more ready to critique the system at its roots than we were back then we were just learning about what it meant to critique the system but we had a hope and a belief that the future could be that much better and I don’t you know I I think kids now see it maybe it could be different but they don’t have a this that kind of burning Vision that we we can make a better world so last question that you both I think can answer um in an informed way I’ll start with you Peter history and its uses it does seem like we’re in a moment where people are at least open to reassessing their interpretations of what happened particularly in the last 100 years the 20th century um do you think that 50 years from now will there our grandkids will be reading a different version of History 50 years from now well if they should start with Oliver my book this is the earlier Edition The Untold History of the United States you know this one the 2012 edition had was about 750 Pages we put out an updated Edition in 2019 and now it’s over 900 Pages people really should read it and watch it because it’s got so much history that people don’t know I was talking about the ignorance about World War I well I did an anonymous survey with college students all of whom were a students in high school and and I asked them how many Americans died in World War too and the median answer I got was 990,000 so they only they were only off by 300,000 they were in the ballpark I asked them how many Soviets died in World War II the immediate answer I got was a 100,000 so they were only 27 million off right these are smart kids and they know nothing they couldn’t understand World War II they couldn’t understand the Cold War they couldn’t understand what’s going on in Ukraine unless they know the history and this why Oliver and I did The Untold History of the United States to begin filling in those blanks tulsey gabard was interviewed by the New York Times in 2019 and they asked her what the big article what what podcast do you watch she says I don’t want to talk about podcast but I just finished watching The Untold History of the United States and everybody should watch it because it fills in those blanks the history that nobody knows that we never learn about in this country you know and so 50 years from now it depends really because it’s going on in Japan Oliver and I wrote an article after one of our trips in Japan called Partners in historical falsification the United States and Japan you know it’s going on in Russia it’s going I mean everywhere people try to sanitize whitewash their history on the assumption that if people know true history then they’re going to rebel and want something different and something better because if anything history teaches you that what exists now is not what has to exist or what should exist that human beings can create a much different world and that’s what the lesson of it so it’s not just to learn the past for the sake of the past it’s to learn the past so you can shape a better future of course it’s yeah and that’s what we’re that’s what Oliver and I most reliable guidepost to the Future so I mean do you think we were talking about JFK okay and when it came out 30 years ago you’re roundly mocked you were no longer mocked people see it as likely at the very least so I think so it seems that way they much more accept it yeah so do you that was the critics the public loved that movie oh I know yeah it did well did very well surprisingly well and it led to the assassination records review board a three hour six minute movie it led to the Assassin records review board which is why so many documents have been Rel which is why I did this documentary that I want you see red uh Revisited this is about the assassination records review board they did good work they didn’t do everything but they did some very good work and brought out new facts that we that are in this so why aren’t why are the Intel agencies still on Trump had a shot in 2016 and he blew it he got pressure from Pompeo Pompeo and those guys and then Biden killed it and Biden know what he was doing this is a very bad action he did he’s under cutting Congress but they’ve been doing that for years anyway so so why why are they so intent on keeping that well there’s obviously some in there yeah obviously I mean I’m not saying that those are the the who killed them names but the we should know more about those CIA guys there’s files on them yes what was what what was uh Angleton up to that’s a big deal James the counterterrorism chief what was uh Phillips Dave Phillips David Phillips up to he was a very important factor in the Latin American operation from Guatemala on he could he was the Handler for for Oswald and Clay Shaw’s in there there’s a bunch of people that are oh the fellow joanes the Morley’s chasing George joanes he’s he’s he’s dirty all the way he was in from the beginning and they covered it up at the time they he they brought him back as as a witness for the uh hsca uh anyway uh the oh and Harvey Phill Harvey I think we he needs to be checked out if you had to guess as to why they’re holding these documents 60 OD years later what would it be I you know they they they they they declare everything uh a secret everything practically it’s just it’s it’s standard now yeah massive classification we need more transparency yes it’s it’s a it’s a habit that it’s like a dog peeing on a Hydra hydrant you know it’s just goes on and on and on I don’t understand if there’s an names and stuff they they redact it they redact it so I’m not looking to government but I am looking to honesty that’s what I’m looking for and these bureaucrats in the government how do they feel what do they they feel about their lives are they working for us or are they working for secrecy the people have not been dealt with honestly and we know that I think Americans know that I think Americans are very cynical about the government which is part of the reason why we’re hoping that Trump will pardon Ed Snowden and Julian Assan yeah good point Oliver made a great movie about Snowden you’ve met with Snowden yes you know and what he did was a great service to America he exposed the mass surveillance that was going on of all of us it was a wakeup call yes he should be lionized Dan ellberg was one of my closest friends and Oliver knows Dan also and you know and and Dan was facing 115 years in prison for releasing the Pentagon papers but he said it was worth doing it even though he thought there was only a little chance it could end the war or affect the end of the war he wanted to get out this history and for that he was vilified and gone after by Nixon I mean that was really the best thing they had on Nixon was the break into Dan psychiatrist office and the the plans to try to you know kill effectively kill him uh compromise him uh you know but Dan ended up by the end of his life and what he spent most of his life warning about was the nuclear threat you know and and the end of his life he was getting even New York Times and everybody else was treating him much like what he deserved to be treated like which is a hero and I’m hoping that Trump will understand that and pardon Ed Snowden as quickly as possible and Julian Assange and Julian Assange yeah well he has s at least you know got some measure of Freedom at this point but he was commuted yeah he ple he pleaded in one charge yes but he can’t come here gentlemen thank you both very much thank [Music] you thanks for watching our YouTube channel we hope you’ll subscribe to it and by the way you can also hit the little bell icon and get a notification every time we produce a video we hope you’ll do that too [Music]
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