The Fight Against Worldwide Child Slavery & the Sex Trade | Jim Caviezel and Tim Ballard | EP 372

This is the best interview I’ve ever had in  my life I love your line of questioning and um   getting to what what is real I hooked into Tim has  a childlike quality to him and I stay with that  

Innocence and that and don’t take that innocence’s  weakness or uh and uh when I read the scripture   I I feel truth good evil and I find the good  and let that just Pierce The Darkness [Music]   hello everyone watching and listening today  I have the pleasure of speaking to two people  

Someone you most likely know for his portrayal  of Jesus of Nazareth in Passion of the Christ   Jim Caviezel and also someone you should know  if you don’t already The Man Behind operation   Underground Railroad Tim Ballard we discussed the  new film The Sound of freedom wherein Mr cavizo  

Plays Tim Bellard in the telling of his real life  story detailing his fight against the increasingly   worldwide and pervasive childhood sex trade the  film The Sound of Freedom releases on July 4th   so about a week and a half ago I got a text  message from Tony Robbins uh suggesting that  

I watch a new film called the sound of freedom and  I did that about four days ago with my wife Tammy   and was quite struck by the movie and I decided  to follow up on it it details out the efforts of  

One man Tim Bellard to investigate uh the a child  sexual slave ring and to rescue the children that   were associated with that but it also points to  a broader social problem which is the spread of   sexual and slave trafficking worldwide abetted by  the gnat which is a great Avenue for Psychopathic  

Criminals to pursue their darkest desires with  very little risk of being caught especially on   the multinational basis so I’ve decided to I to to  reach out to Tim Bellard who is the um the man who  

Who the movie is about and to Jim Caviezel who’s  the actor that plays him to talk about what all   this signifies and so Tim let’s start with you  I mean the movie makes the case that there is   a widely expanding network of slavery essentially  making itself manifest worldwide concentrating in  

No small part on very young children who  are being sold repeatedly to pedophilic Psychopaths to have at their will and of course  can be sold repeatedly for that purpose and the   movie makes the case that this is now an  operation that’s rivaling the drug trade  

In magnitude so you know it sounds like yet  another right-wing conspiracy so please why   don’t you walk us through what you know and and  and help me understand and everybody watching and   listening exactly what you think is going on yeah  thank you so much uh Jordan we’re so grateful uh  

You take your time to do this with us so I spent  12 years as a special agent undercover operator   with the Department of Homeland Security most of  my time 90 of that time was spent investigating   these cases child crimes child trafficking and in  fact those numbers are correct uh that are being  

This these are Department of Labor U.N these  are sources that um you know the the best we   have that say that there’s close to Six Million  children or more who are forced into sex slavery   labor slavery or organ harvesting and I can  attest that I have been involved in in cases  

Involving all three of those forms of slavery  multiple times and is absolutely is a real thing   um it’s not even far far from home uh it’s the  United States is the number one consumer year   after year of child rate material and oftentimes  we we’re close to number one in production  

Um and it’s a serious matter you know the case um  the story and the sound of Freedom kicks off with   the rescue of a little boy at the Port of Entry uh  the southern border that’s a real story a real boy  

Um that I I was on that Port of Entry I was 10  years on the southern border so when you have 85   000 unaccompanied minors showing up in the last  two years being let into the country without the   sponsor being vetted DNA checked background  checked um you know I called the economy of  

Pedophilia at the United States where the demand  85 000 children thousands of them are under five   years old are are LED into the country so we  have we have a serious serious problem and   uh it’s it’s not being addressed as it should  be hopefully this film can do that have have  

What has been your experience with regard to  so-called mainstream Media or Legacy media   coverage how much attention has been paid to this  and if not much why and if reasonably who and how   well I think not not very much has been  uh you know attention has been given by  

Mainstream media oftentimes it’s more innocent  than cynical perhaps where it’s just this is too   dark I don’t want to expose our audience to  this horrific thing um you know we I I film   we film our operations I mean I I’m going  to post today another operation in in West  

Africa of a baby Factory I mean these are real  cases where they’ve they’ve kidnapped women   um as young as 13 year olds and children and  they impregnate them they rape them and they   make babies and they take these babies and sell  them for their organs sell them for sex sell them  

For a Satanic ritual abuse like it’s it’s it does  sound crazy that’s why I film it our operations   we film our operations so that we can show the  world this is very real it’s really happening   um and I think if there’s two million children  forced into commercial sex which is this the  

Most uh kind of credible statistic that we can  find a lot of people are involved so there is a   more cynical answer to your question which may  be there’s people that don’t want this exposed  

The because they’re involved in it so I’m going to  harass you a bit here um from the Wikipedia page   um there is some not that I’m particular  particular fan of Wikipedia Pages uh depending on   the circumstances but there are some criticisms of  what you’re doing and I thought we might as well  

Um address them right off the bat bat  because people who are watching are   going to be look man if I was coming across  this for the first time and in some ways I am   I’ve got two choices in front of me don’t I I can  either presume that you’ve discovered something  

That’s ongoing and of tremendous significance  that’s terribly dark or I can assume that the   difficult work that you had done for a decade um  genuinely addressing these problems has made you   hypersensitive to a threat and willing to magnify  it and it would be easier just to ignore you as a  

Consequence now that would be the preferable  um outcome to such an investigation wouldn’t   it so you can as as you said you can understand  why people might want to avert their eyes from   such a thing so I’m going to walk through these  criticisms and maybe you could you know you can  

Respond to them and we can get that out of the  way before we go deeper into the film and and   your your uh in your your uh your operations so  so your group and this is Operation Underground  

Railroad and tell me if I get anything wrong here  says it devours conspiracy theories though founder   Tom Bellard was criticized for refusing  to condemn the Q Anon conspiracy theory   um I have no idea what the hell that  means do you know what that’s referring to  

Yeah absolutely we um that’s that’s a lie in  Wikipedia we have absolutely an rfaqs for years   have have condemned the majority of of what we  see um with conspiracy theories uh so I they like  

To attribute me to the Q Anon movement um there  may be some truths in there but there’s so many   falsehoods on top of that so our FAQs refute that  immediately um because it can it discredits the  

Movement in fact I would go so far as to consider  that maybe certain people who don’t want this   known are responsible for some of the conspiracy  theories in order to discredit the movement   um and uh they go too far they go too far in in  their assessment of things but yeah we absolutely  

Have just disavowed uh what’s generally coming out  of of Q Anon yeah well it says you know it’s very   vague on Wikipedia it says to condemn the Q Anon  conspiracy theory well I know perfectly well that  

There are more than one conspiracy theories let’s  say on Q and on so I’m not even exactly sure what   it’s referring to what is there a particular  conspiracy theory that um you were criticized   for refusing to condemn do you have any more  specific details about that I mean I I’m not  

Sure what exactly they’re talking about Pro they  might be uh referring to the fact that there’s   something called adrenal Chrome where they take  they’re taking children’s blood and devouring it   and so forth uh and I’ve explained my experience  with that and and I just did in West Africa and  

Other places we’ve seen this in in several parts  of the continent of Africa and it’s very real it’s   very real This Witch doctory they take these  children we they they take their organs they   take their blood they they they drink it they take  the genitalia of children and and hang it over the  

Rooftop of their businesses thinking that the the  dark Gods will bless them these are real things   um and so I might say something like that and  then they connect it to something uh that a q   Anon person says about you know a celebrity who  must be doing this too but there’s no evidence  

To back that and they make they make a false  connection there um and and so that’s that’s   the only example I can think of okay got it well  the next thing it says is that the the operation   underground Railway fall mostly claimed that it  had entered a partnership with American Airlines  

That was in 2022 so what do you what do you what  do you have to say about that oh there’s a great   one so a PR firm uh who represented um us made a  deal with American Airlines uh came to us and said  

Shoot the video they’re going to put this video  on your uh we’re gonna put there for this video on   the airlines they shot the video of me I just get  a call from our PR Company to put me in a studio  

I give a video that I think I’m talking to the  passengers for one month uh on American Airlines   apparently the deal fell through the PR Company  didn’t tell us that and our our marketing company   our marketing team put out hey we’re going to be  on American Airlines the PR Company apologized  

We had we fired them they said we can’t believe  we didn’t get the message to you and that was it   and of course there’s people that want so badly  for us to be wrong or us to not do what we say we  

Do so they exploited that I think that was a vice  magazine very incredibly dishonest uh Journal uh I   can’t call him journalist us the vice magazine did  they’ve done a series of hit pieces on this and I   I encourage people I encourage people to read it  readvice readvice because everything they say is  

So ridiculous and so dishonest right right yes  well and I I do believe if I remember correctly   the advice is also declared bankruptcy in the last  few weeks and I can’t imagine an organization more   richly deserving there was a 2021 follow-up  article from Vice but I don’t think we’re  

Going to I’ll just read part of it because it’s so  ridiculous conflating consensual sex work with sex   trafficking yeah well that’s exactly the kind of  Weasley um what would you call it criticism that   I’d expect from people who were trying to justify  the sorts of behaviors that you are attempting to  

Expose um then there’s a 2021 article in slate  criticizing a 2014 raid conducted by operation   underground Railway in the Dominican Republic  saying that it was likely to have traumatized   the traffic children um Ann Gallagher an  authority on human trafficking wrote in 2015  

That our had an alarming lack of understanding  about how sophisticated criminal trafficking   networks must be approached and dismantled and  called the work of our arrogant unethical and   illegal so and have a way of that oh thank you  I’m grateful for this opportunity so someone  

Like Ann Gallagher who lives 3000 miles away from  any operation we’ve ever done is not qualified to   talk about what our operations she can’t give  any uh details she can’t give any examples   um the Slate article is a fun one to address I’ve  addressed it several times um we um early on we  

Brought a blogger down to do to to watch our  operations we we invite people down but if Tony   Robbins has been down um we invite politicians the  Attorney General of Utah’s coming our operations   um if we’re hiding something that’s the last thing  we would of course do so we bring this journalist  

This blogger I won’t call her a journalist  um and we thought she was a friend and she   came and watched a legit legitimate operation  happened in in Dominican Republic there were   seven traffickers who showed up seven traffickers  arrested there were um 20 plus uh people rescued  

Nine of them were children you can’t you can’t  sometimes you can’t always uh control who shows   up to the sting party the traffickers bring  who they will but nine children uh showed up   they were all liberated from the the the the  the um you know the control of their captors  

Um this blogger then wrote two glowing stories  about it that she witnessed this she had very   minimal exposure to the operation itself  she she witnessed it some seven years later   she decides to use it in my opinion to  somehow increase her social media following  

As our foundation grew and she writes a story  it’s in slate now here’s here’s the key thing   um nine children rescued and nine children  had three years of Aftercare services in   this operation provided by International Justice  mission one of the top authorities in Aftercare  

And and fighting human trafficking um seven  traffickers were not only arrested but all seven   were convicted so she chose the wrong case to  criticize now tellingly if if anyone’s gonna write   a story about that operation good bad or otherwise  and they leave out the part that says seven  

Traffickers were arrested and seven traffickers  were convicted and nine children were liberated   and had three years of Aftercare to heal them if  you leave that part out either you are extremely   incompetent as a researcher and writer or you’re  a liar either way the story has zero credibility  

On that fact alone that you because she doesn’t  even report on those two on those two essential   elements all right well we’ve hypothetically  dispensed with Vice which of course is a   yeah well it’s pretty funny that that’s what they  named their organization as far as I’m concerned  

And we’ll leave the Slate issue aside Jim let me  ask you a couple of questions if you don’t mind   do you want to first of all tell people um about  your involvement with Angel Studios a little bit  

About your career and why this particular movie  sound of Freedom it’s it it’s opening what in   early July is it July when does it come out it  comes out uh July 4th week so next week next week  

It’s it’s it’s out in theaters uh Nationwide so  so let me turn to Jim Jim can you hear me yes yes   all right so yeah do you want to detail out your  your association with Angel Studios tell everybody  

First who Angel studios are what they’ve done  and I’ve watched a lot of the chosen by the way   which I thought was extremely high quality um do  you tell us about the studio tell us about your   involvement with them about your career and then  about your attraction to this particular movie  

Well let’s start with the movie first um I  have three uh adopted children from China   I became aware of the dangers that go on um with  children around the world and through that process   um then I became aware of Tim Ballard and  coincidentally then my friend Eduardo verastigi  

Brought me this script because many of the  actors that they had offered it to didn’t   want to get involved in this particular project  I read the script I love the movie Taken and I   thought this is like taken but with a much bigger  heart then Tim Ballard came to the meeting he had  

Seen two films that I did one was called The  Count of Monte Cristo and then the other one   was The Passion of the Christ and he felt that  I’d be the right guy to play him Angel Studios  

I had nothing no connection to them until a few  months ago when they wanted to do this movie   and they wanted their idea was to sell 2 million  tickets for these two million trafficked children  

So why why is it that a number of actors why in  your estimation did a number of actors turn down   the opportunity to play the role what and and and  why and why did you decide to forego that risk and  

To and to climb aboard I foregoed the risk because  when you have uh three children that you loved   when you’d give your life for it kind of connects  into Tim Ballard and Tim did this for this little  

Girl and the children that he saves it’s something  uh is a greater purpose that even your career   uh you know like I I went through this with Mel  Gibson when we did the passion that my career  

Was the last thing I thought of what I thought  about was the God I love and I put this in how   I look at it is is that this God that I love it  he loves me and he deserved to be loved back and  

So I I would be nothing without him he gave me my  purpose and this life so um the the Tim Ballard I   was very fortunate that he had seen those um films  and um when I looked at and I think Tim made this  

Comparison Schindler’s List was a very uh powerful  weapon but it came 50 years too late this film is   now this is exposing it now during that time and  I believe that is probably why it’s easier to get  

An OCTA to do a movie 50 years later there’s no  controversy it’s over but the the individuals   imagine if Rwanda if that story had been made  that movie had been made during that time or   that they could see it you know it you you have  to look at these situations and understand that  

Um good people sit back and do nothing and allow  this evil to occur there’s got to be people that   stand up in the time that it occurs and that’s  what drew me to the whole story in the first place  

And do you do you how how do you feel about  the movie now you’ve seen the movie in its   entirety it’s about to be released uh it’s a  fully fledged high quality production I was   particularly impressed by the cinematography um it  it’s also extraordinarily well edited the acting  

Um I don’t want to flatter you but the acting is  extremely high quality it’s very realistic movie   um how how do you how how do you feel about your  involvement now that everything is done and and   how do you feel about the what would you say  the production capacity of Angel Studios which  

Is a relatively you know it’s a relatively new a  relative newcomer on the on the mass entertainment   block when I was sitting next in Tim Ballard and  he leaned over and he started to weep uh heavily I  

Knew I did my job so do you want to run us briefly  through I don’t want to give away the entire plot   because that would obviously be pointless but do  you want to just run this briefly through Jim the  

The the the plot of the movie and then I’ll turn  to Tim and fill in some of the background details   of his life and so I play Tim Ballard he’s a  Homeland Security he sets up these um uh sting  

Operations to take down these very very bad men uh  to save traffic children and one particular case   one of the traffickers that he takes down earned  slipachinski uh who’s he he rescues this boy and  

The little boy turns to him and says will you save  my sister and Tim goes back gets the direction   from above and from his wife and goes back and  he sells everything to find this little girl   so what I liked about the script so I’ve  noticed that one of the most effective ways  

Of communicating complex ideas effectively is to  particularize the problem and so what happens in   this movie is that the broad problem of sexual of  of slavery and human trafficking and the somewhat   narrower problem of sexual trafficking of  children is zeroed uh is is what focused  

On a particular case and so that gives the movie a  very powerful narrative underpinning right because   when our problem is particularized and you can see  how it affects actual specific people’s lives it   becomes much more realistic and much more palpable  and I thought the movie did a good job of that  

Uh Tim do you want to walk everybody listening  through let’s go back into the details of your   life now you worked for this you you worked we  worked for the Special Forces per se and who who  

Are you working for before you decided to forego  your career and to pursue this the case that we’re   describing so I worked for 12 years as a special  agent and undercover undercover operator for the   Department of Homeland Security the investigative  division called Homeland Security investigations  

10 of those years were spent on the border uh  tracking child traffickers people who would   exploit children with child exploitation material  so I really learned a lot in 2006 the laws changed   in the United States and for the first time  U.S agents were permitted and encouraged to go  

Overseas and find children who Americans were  abusing and we could now hold those Americans   accountable as if they had committed that crime  on U.S soil that’s that’s what really changed my   life because I started I speak Spanish fluently  and they sent me overseas South of the Border  

That’s when my eyes opened up and I started seeing  the children that I used to only see mostly on the   on the pornography on the child expectation  material cases um but it was tormenting me uh   the US government unwittingly was because if I  couldn’t find that connection back to the United  

States States the American kid or the American  pedophile I had to come home but the problem   is I’ve already been exposed to the children  I’ve already been exposed to the problem and   oftentimes have made myself debate and in 2012  I had enough on this case I kind of went more I  

Went further than otherwise I probably should have  the movie didn’t have time to tell you that there   was another case in Haiti at the same time that I  was working uh thinking there was a U.S Nexus and  

I was told in both instances to come home and you  couldn’t work these cases and that’s when I had a   very consequential conversation with my wife and  I said if I stay here if I do this operation with  

Or without my badge it doesn’t matter at this  point I I’m I can do the work we will save kids   um and um but I I have to lose my job and we have  six children and this is this is a moral dilemma  

Like I’ve never faced in my life and I was hoping  my wife would have responded with get your ass   home you can’t you can’t abandon us you know first  of all you’re gonna die without the top cover of  

The US government if you continue this and who’s  going to pay the bills and feed the feed the kids   she didn’t say that she said to me you have to  quit your job it was that easy for her um it  

Became spiritual for her even she felt a calling  and a responsibility that she might have to reckon   with one day when she meets her maker and I knew  that she felt that way when she told me this in  

The crucial moment of decision about two days  before I ended up turning my badge and gun over   and and went private she said to me I will not let  you jeopardize my salvation by not doing this and  

When she said those words and I knew she meant  those words that changed everything for me and   we jumped into really just an irrational Act of  service I might call it because it wasn’t rational   in many in many ways but ultimately it ended in  the operation UC depicted in the film which shows  

54 children uh some uh some adult young young  adult women were in that group as well rescued   on that island but what the movie doesn’t uh have  the time to report is that in actuality was 120  

Um there was two other locations being taken down  at the same time and there’s a documentary that’s   going to follow uh in in the wake of sound of  Freedom called triple take Angel Studios will  

Put it out uh documenting the entire story and so  in the end it was successful and we were able to   build upon that success and I founded operation  Underground Railroad I run another Foundation   that was founded by Glenn Beck called the Nazarene  fund and we’re doing these kind of operations all  

Over the world today so how let’s go back in  time to before you worked as a security agent   for the homelands homeless or an agent for the  homeland security investigations unit how did   you how were you trained to do that like what was  your background before you became employed as an  

Agent and what was it about you that made you  capable of engaging in this sort of operation   so I I I got a graduate degree in um International  politics and I always wanted to be in federal law  

Enforcement my first job was CIA I was there  doing 911 um working in the operations center   in the wake of 9 11. I found out that I studied  terrorism and weapons of mass destruction uh that   was the the actually the degree I got at the  Monterey Institute of international studies  

Um and so um it was an easy recruit into the  CIA because you know 911 had just happened when   I found out that one of the terrorists Muhammad  attah had staged his attack from Mexicali Mexico   across the border and I speak Spanish I wanted  to go fight terrorism on the southern border so  

I ended up jumping on the ship from CIA and  I joined the newly created Homeland Security   Department and it became a special agent for six  months I was tracking those kind of movements   uh you know not not human trafficking or child  exploitation but money guns terrorism six months  

Into that Endeavor I was called into the office  of a supervisor and they asked me if I would   please forgo everything that I wanted to do with  my career and help them start a child crimes unit  

I do not know why they asked me uh one thing he  did say to me was you’re a young agent but you’re   a person of faith and we know that about you and  that’s that’s a requirement or you’re you’re your  

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Would to tell us to the degree that you can  what you were typically dealing with when you   started when you started working for the child  sex crimes unit let us know what you saw let us   know what you what that did to you because that  sort of thing that changes people’s conceptions  

Of humanity per se let’s say the nature of the  cosmos and what it means to be human right I mean   when you’re when you’re in contact with people  who are capable of that level of Darkness you   start to understand something about the nature  of the human soul that you can’t understand any  

Other way and that can be a I mean that’s the  sort of thing that gives people post traumatic   stress disorder when they’re soldiers so and and  now you said also your supervisors had an inkling   that you might be protected against that at least  to some degree because of your faith so let’s walk  

Through what you learned and encountered first  what what did you see when you were working as   part of this child sex crimes unit what I saw was  so shocking Jordan uh I thought child sex crimes   would be 15 year olds 16 year olds uh my brain  couldn’t comprehend something more evil than  

Abusing that age the very first case I worked in  2002 I believe I was given a bunch of VHS videos   some hard drives to look at that had been seized  in a warrant the very first image I saw um were um

There were three uh three little boys ah  that were probably seven five and three   and they looked uh like they looked like my  children they had you know they had blonde   blonde eye blonde hair blue eyes and they  were being just raped raped these three  

Little boys by this pedophile and I was  so shocked I fell to my knees I dry heaved   thinking I was going to throw up into the  waste basket I jumped into my car I drove   to my children’s School my three oldest kids I  checked them out I still remember in my mind I  

Can still see dentist dentist appointment I wrote  and I grabbed them I took them home and just   sobbed on the floor my wife came in and I just I  wouldn’t let the kids go just holding them shaking  

Um that was my very first experience uh you talked  about PTSD I absolutely deal with PTSD to this day   um I I took too long to actually deal with it  uh that’s another story um and I thought I can’t  

I can’t do this I can’t do this um I started  getting help immediately uh because I didn’t   want to quit and uh that that’s that’s what this  is that’s what this is and those kind of videos   have increased over the last couple years by  five thousand percent yeah well in in Canada  

Um we just had a report from an organization  called the Western Standard that one million child   sexual exploitation photos and videos have been  identified in an Alberta child porn investigation   one million photos eight arrests made okay so  that’s some indication of the widespread nature  

Of the problem now you said that when you first  encountered this material it made you physically   ill and also terrified for the safety of your  children but then also it necessitated you seeking   um health I suppose or Aid I mean I’ve worked  with people who’ve had post-traumatic stress  

Disorder generally what happens is that tragedy is  not enough to give someone post-traumatic stress   disorder even if it’s rather severe it has to be  a combination of tragedy and malevolence and the   real trauma comes as a consequence of contact  with evil with malevolence and what people  

Generally have to do in order to recover  from that is to develop a rather profound   philosophy of evil and you know a religious  faith in in its most fundamental Essence is a   philosophy of Good and Evil it it does detail  out the Heart of Darkness among human beings  

Point out to people this is particularly although  you not not uniquely true of the Christian   tradition but particularly true that that capacity  for evil lurks in the heart of everyone and that   are fundamental moral obligation as we Soldier  and here on Earth is to overcome that proclivity  

Within and also to stand up against it in the  external world and so you said you received   some Aid after you had been exposed to this first  set of videos um what what is it about the way you  

Looked at the world that had to change in order  for you to adapt to what you were encountering   well I had to come to grips with the the an idea  that I had never been confronted with before that  

There are people and not a few but millions  of people only millions of of pedophiles could   justify a demand of millions of child exploitation  uh material videos and so forth uh the first   person you see arrested in the movie is a real  person named ursulchinski in sound of Freedom he  

Had over 2 million pieces of child rape material  in his house so um to to be confronted with the   reality that there are people on this planet and  like like I said not a few but but Millions who  

Want to indulge in watching five-year-old children  be raped and sexually assaulted in ways that and   I’m sorry to be so raw but I feel comfortable  with you Dr Peterson but uh to to to watch   children’s bodies actually break in the act  of sexual assault acts that your mind couldn’t  

Conjure up if you tried to conjure it up and  that it’s real that is so shocking to the system   um it changes your life forever I I tell  people if I feel like I’ve had a million   holes burned into my brain because I’ve watched  thousands of hours of that kind of material not  

Only not only watch it and I love the scene  that Jim depicts where he’s it’s that’s very   real I I break I can’t watch I can’t watch  the movie but the movie’s very good the   movie doesn’t show any of this by the way it  doesn’t show anything like this I don’t want  

People to run away and be scared but you  see the scene where the the camera flashes   um a close-up into Jim’s eyes and that’s that was  me for for 10 years not only watching but writing   writing it in details for the court to see for  the prosecutors to see and and raising children  

At the same time that are the very same age and  fortunately or unfortunately for me I have now I   have nine children that at the time I I left the  government at six and so I can always identify  

The age of a child with one of my own children  and my mind was almost automatically doing is   I would superimpose my own children’s faces and  persons onto these children and that’s that led to  

Um that led to the PTSD I’ll be honest um and  almost a paranoia about what would happen to my   children and watching my children and I’ve come a  long ways and and I’m I’m able to deal with it but  

I I I I was determined never to quit and so I just  sought more help and I I won’t quit so okay so Tim   I’m I’m gonna walk you through what I know about  how people turn into the sort of pedophile that  

You find so you and everyone else I suppose  or virtually everyone else finds so mysterious   so I’m going to refer first to the story of Cain  and Abel because it actually puts its finger on   the process in a stunning manner so what happens  in that story is that two different Pathways to  

Adaptation are detailed out and they become the  Cardinal Pathways of adaptation that characterize   the whole human race immersed as it is from that  point onward in history instead of in the Garden   of Eden and one is the pathway of Cain and the  other is the pathway of Abel now Abel makes high  

Quality sacrifices he’s all in right he puts  himself on the line and he does the real thing   and as a consequence God finds God uh finds  he finds favor with God and His sacrifices   are rewarded he does well and everyone loves  him and he thrives and Cain his sacrifices are  

Not of the same quality he tries to cut the  corners and to and to pull the wool over his   eyes and and God’s eyes and everyone else’s eyes  and as a consequence his sacrifices are rejected   and instead of clueing the hell in and waking  up and taking responsibility for his failure  

He decides that he’s going to call out God for  creating a cosmos that’s cosmically unfair and   unjust and the evidence for that is Kane’s  failure and Abel’s success and so he has a   little chat with God and he basically calls  him out and says you know I’m breaking myself  

In half here and nothing’s going my way and  Abel gets everything he wants and you know   how dare you make a cosmos so radically unjust  and improper and why don’t you just straighten   yourself out and God says if you did well  you would be rewarded for it and you should  

Look to yourself and then he says something  even worse and this is very subtle because   um it’s complicated to understand it unless you  look at multiple translations or potentially the   original Hebrew which I can’t read but I read  the multiple translations God says to Cain  

The spirit of sin crouches at your doorstep  like a sexually aroused predatory animal   and you have invited it in to have its way with  you and so now if you study the development of the   fantasies of very very dark people you see that  they brewed and fantasize in isolation for years  

And the fantasies get darker and darker and darker  so they’re bitter and resentful to begin with   and then they start fantasizing about well  what they would want that can take a sexual   end or it can take a very violent and or it can  take both and what they’re really after is the  

Ultimate in Revenge and on the sexual front they  find a kick in extending the what would you call   it unacceptability of the fantasy one stage at a  time um the the famous and extremely attractive   sexual serial killer what was his name he’s  a famous photograph of him like this very  

Attractive man do you remember his dad Bundy  Ted Bundy Ted Bundy detailed out exactly how   his fantasies progressed as he became more and  more involved with pornography and what happens   in some sense is that these people who are nursing  these terrible fantasies want to stay on the edge  

Of novelty and so their fantasies get darker and  darker and darker as they progress down that road   and so after a thousand such micro progressions  they end up in exactly the sort of pit that   you’re describing and some of that is pure sexual  kick because of the novelty and but it’s got this  

Sadistic and perverse uh vengeful twist and you  could think about it this way you know I think   it says in the gospels that you know it would be  better that that a most Millstone was hung around  

Your neck and that you were cast into the abyss  than to do harm to any of God God’s children let’s   say and the that’s actually where the perverse  Delight comes because the most egregious possible   sin let’s say is the violent sexual abuse of the  most innocent possible person and the perverse  

Novelty kick is highest at exactly that point and  then that just goes from bad to worse and there’s   a thousand or even ten thousand micro decisions  that go along with that there’s also a great book   called Ordinary men this is well worth reading  although it’s a bloody catastrophe to read I’ll  

Tell you it details out how a group of German  policemen who were moved to Poland during World   War II were transformed from ordinary middle class  working class or sorry ordinary working class men   um old enough to not have been raised under the  Nazi regime by the way and so not propagandized  

Into a kind of mindless obedience how they went  from being perfectly ordinary policemen to the   sort of people who could take naked pregnant women  out into the middle of the field and shoot them in  

The back of the head and it isn’t like they had  an easy time with that some of them reported the   same sort of thing that you reported when you  first watched that video they would they what  

They were being called upon to do stage by stage  made them physically ill and they had a commander   who actually had told them that they could leave  the service if they didn’t want to continue with  

Their duties but they felt Duty bound not to lead  leave their comrades having to mop up the terrible   situation but it does a lovely job of detailing  out how your movement from normality to Absolute   perversity is a consequence of ten thousand micro  um what would you say micro violations of your own  

Conscience not all of the micro obviously so you  know you need to know about the vengefulness you   need to know about the kick of sadism that’s that  novelty kick that produces a dopaminergic kick   that heightens sexual satisfaction and so there’s  an there’s an element of sadistic misery that can  

Add novelty to sex that’s particularly attractive  to people who are bitter and resentful because   they actually can’t find any willing sexual  partners and so they’re angry at the world   and shake their fist to God because of it and so  anyways that’s a bit of the developmental course  

Of such of such a lovely descent into hell and and  the interesting thing about it is that people Brew   Day like you don’t get to the point where you’re  watching pornographic videos of children being   raped without hundreds or even thousands of hours  of increasingly demented voluntary fantasy and  

That’s that allowing the spirit of sin that would  otherwise crouch on your doorstep to enter your   house and have its way with you right it’s like  a collaborative Venture with Satan himself that’s   the most straightforward way of describing it and  so well so that’s I don’t know what you have to  

Say about that but I’ll let you have at her I’ll  say this that everything you’re saying absolutely   he resonates with my anecdotal experiences dealing  with these people I look into their eyes and what   you’re describing is what I see though I’ve never  been able to articulate it like you just have  

So I appreciate being armed with with um with an  understanding that it will help me uh evangelize   more clearly to others about the dangers of  of over stimulation and overview support of   pornography and and shaking hands with the devil  so thank you for that that was very insightful  

So I I spent a bit of time um not a lot but  a bit of time inside a maxim security prison   when I was a kid I worked with a very strange  psychologist that was there and one of the  

Things that really shocked me and I I think this  shocked me enough to change my whole life was   I I met these I met this one prisoner who was a  pretty non-descript looking character he took me  

For a walk out in the yard away from a gym full  of like weight lifting Ax Murderer monsters and   rapists and we went for a walk out in the yard  and the psychologist called us back and told me  

Later in the office that this guy who’s about  five two pretty non-pre-possessing guy had uh   made two policemen Neil in front of him begged  for their lives in reference to their families   and then shot them both in the back of the head  and and kicked them aside and the shocking thing  

To me was you know you kind of think that if you  met pure evil it would it would have a monstrous   form and you know the thing that shocked me about  that was the non-descript nature of this guy you  

Know his his absolutely banal ordinariness  the fact that you could just walk past him   on the street you’d never know he wasn’t some  monster you know the Monstrous character of   Satan in your imagination is you know a figure  that’s terrifying to behold instead of someone  

Normal you know what I mean normally in that  cringing sense these people that you’ve interacted   with like what’s your what’s your reaction to them  when you talk to them the pedophiles when you talk   to them and when you arrest them my experience  is very similar to what you just described very  

Nondescript people of all walks of life we’ve  we’ve we’ve arrested and I’ve interrogated   um Educators uh lawyers law enforcement clergyman  um and and uh sitting across from them there’s but   with no apparent physicality that would tell you  who they are but I will say this when they start  

Talking and I look into their eyes that’s when  I can I sense something that that really scares   the hell out of me um and the way they talk  about children when they get there and it’s   it’s something that they’ve been able to normalize  and they’re speaking to me about children almost  

Like they’re talking about you know the weather or  you know talking about buying and selling children   like you talk about buying and selling computer  parts or an automobile or something and that’s   where I thought you something has taken over  you something non-human has made you less human  

Um and I’ve never been able to figure it  out uh only that it creeps me out and and   um and I usually end up getting them to confess  because they have brought themselves to a place   where they think they’re okay they think that  it’s somehow normal I don’t know if that makes  

Sense how do they do Dr Peterson well well the  the degree of rationalization that has to with   each with each step forward in the progress of  the fantasy there has to be a step forward in the   self-deception with regards to self-description  right so imagine that you’re you’re attempting to  

Cling to a sense of yourself at least as normal  but even maybe as a moral agent I mean the the   more forthright pedophiles claim that they’re  only allowing children to express their true   sexual desires and that what they’re actually  doing is forming the best relationship with the  

Children that they’ve ever had now of course  there’s part of them that knows that that’s   an absolutely bloody screaming hellish lie but  you get to that lie like I said with a thousand   micro lies right and you’re modifying your  self-conception along the way I mean have you  

Had these people justify themselves to you and  if so by what means do they attempt to do that   so one person that comes to mind absolutely the  answer is yes and one person that comes to mind is   the person depicted in the film oshensky uh this  person had written uh articles self-published of  

Course he had a book that he actually sold  on Amazon and his understanding or his his   justification was that the puritanical Society  of this country has crushed the true uh and and   and beautiful and righteous uh sexual experience  uh which the most natural would be between a man  

And a child a prepubescent child a prepubescent  child is is is the is the most beautiful form of   humanity and um and why why take that away from a  child’s children would be well uh conditioned to   to to confront the challenges of life if only they  could experience orgasmic pleasure even in their  

Prepubescence um this is how they talk right right  and right yeah well that you saw because of that   there was attempts made in the 1970s by French  intellectuals surprise surprise to have the age of   consent reduce radically and that was always the  rationale it was an extension of the patriarchal  

Oppression theory in some sense right that all  sexual expression is essentially pure and good   in its most fundamental form and it’s all warped  by social pressure and if we were just allowed to   express ourselves in every manner that we saw fit  that everyone would be free and we wouldn’t suffer  

Any more from the constraints of of tyrannical  Society right and it’s just convenient for the   bloody pedophiles that that happens to justify  them doing whatever they the hell they want to   children who are obviously too young to consent  right so he is a good example I forgot about that  

In the book Jim let me ask you so now you didn’t  have to go through the same things that Tim did   and you obviously weren’t subject to the same  kind of exposure but you had to play this role   and you had to act out in your imagination  the darkness that characterized the people  

Who played your enemies let’s say on the screen  what were the consequences for you of having to   delve even on the fictional landscape into this  entire uh what would you say underworld domain   well let’s um start with your story  initially when you brought up Cain and Abel  

Um in my years of working with agents like  Tim and I actually worked with other agents   because Tim was very busy doing Missions at the  time and I got to go in to a lot of his world I  

Mean those are the guys that I play so I don’t  imitate other actors I go and meet these guys   and really learn and study what they do Cain  and Abel for example able is doing good things  

For God how would Cain hurt God by killing Abel  by wounding him when I go and play for example   a serial killer or a man that you mentioned  earlier Ted Bundy who my friend uh broke that  

Case and found out who he was Mike tando so  you’re the Beast that comes in you he he he   um comes in and he um deceives you and and  starts with the ego and the whole thing   and then eventually the turn is is how that you’re  eventually not fair on non-servient uh becomes  

Um one who how can I wound God the most by killing  the most innocent child and it wounds God in the   greatest way when you take these innocent children  who’ve done nothing and have no sin and these guys  

Um uh um have the attitude which you were  mentioning earlier all the cutting of the corners   and whatnot and ultimately they um can kill the  most innocent and effectively wounds God’s heart  

The most um I spent a great deal time I did this  movie uh Deja Vu and I played it uh Unabomber and   I was on the phone with um um a friend a friend  of mine who broke the case and uh on Ted Bundy  

And I talked to him a lot about uh serial killers  and then um I got to look at the um with the FBI   and the ATF gave me uh through Jerry Bruckheimer  and Tony Scott I got all these videos to look at  

And the the um we I was looking at unabomers  uh guys that um blow things up and um an actual   serial killers but it was written more like a Ted  Bundy um and not a a man who is writing Destiny  

And all of these things that he’d exchanged his  life to take out um whoever they want to take   out and but the the but the voice was very  similar and so I don’t go to Satan to play

In this particular um Story I played this this  guy this um bomber and I don’t go to the devil   to play the devil I think make many actors  make that mistake go to God to tell you who  

The devil is that’s what I do and it also gives  me a protection what’s the difference what’s the   difference Jim like because that also Bears  on how you protect yourself from such things   um the difference and are you saying um the  difference in the the difference is is that I  

Play the truth so if you go and play go to the  devil to play the devil the devil will deceive   you and put something up there that uh deceives  the public he’ll always try to hide in the shadow  

He’ll always try because he doesn’t like the light  even though he’s called the light the Illuminator   um the Lucifer um and he tries to mimic God  he tries to be like God so there’s always like   um if God has love and what we see is  love he creates lust he’s always trying  

To be like that it’s like uh Kane trying  to rip off Abel cutting the corners and   um so committing to well there’s a tendency even  in Milton’s uh in in in Milton’s Paradise Lost   there’s been two readings of that forever and  one of them is that Milton’s Satan is um an  

Anti-hero of the most profound sort really the  embodiment of evil and the other reading is that   um Milton Satan is a a disguised hero and  the Eternal what would you say the Eternal   rebel against established order and someone to  emulate in consequence and that Milton somehow  

Knew that and was coding that not precisely  secretly but subtly and I think that’s a huge   mistake I mean I’ve familiarized myself with  Paradise Lost and I think that Milton was an   extraordinarily subtle writer in that he got  everything as right as anyone ever has but the  

Reason I’m bringing that up is because so this is  okay this is a complicated thing to untangle but   one of the things you see in Hollywood portrayals  of villains you saw this in the Silence of the   Lambs you see it frequently in Mafia portrayals  is that the villain is inadvertently or even  

Sometimes purposefully glorified and it’s  partly because he’s a rule breaker and and   has the attraction that goes along with that  but I also wonder too if it’s it has something   to do with what you were describing is that  the writers and the actors find themselves  

When they’re trying to portray evil pulled  towards falseness in that representation as part   of the proclivity of evil to hide itself and the  danger in that is twofold and one is the danger   of deceiving the public as to the true nature of  evil because there’s nothing heroic about it quite  

The contrary and the second danger I wonder  about you know there’s all this speculation   about Heath Ledger and the consequences that  for him of having played the Joker in such a   dark Manner and you know I don’t know what to make  of that although I do think there is some danger  

In having to Journey down a path of emulating  evil in order to represent it now you said that   you turned to God so to speak to protect yourself  against false representations of evil but also in   some ways to Shield yourself and it sounds to me  reminiscent of what Tim’s uh superiors mentioned  

To him when they said to him that his faith  might protect him from this question what was   okay go ahead man this is the best  interview I’ve ever had in my life I   love your line of questioning and um  getting to what what is real my job  

Uh is to give what I know to be absolutely certain  and real I hooked into Tim has a childlike quality   to him and I stay with that innocence and that and  don’t take that innocence’s weakness or uh and uh  

So when I read the scripture I I feel  truth good evil and I find the good   and let that just pierce the darkness and it has  to pierce and I know what that light is and I know  

That deception that when I start hearing about  for example in your life when you there’s two   masters here one is from the evil Wicked side  but he comes in through your ego and the other  

One is the light side that tells you might what  you might not want to hear but you ought to hear   and it’s not manipulative it’s truth so I I go to  that side then I pray then I go through it like  

The Passion of the Christ I looked at the Shroud  of Turin and there were two men Christian Tinsley   and Keith vanderlin who are experts in makeup and  the first both of these men were agnostic and they  

Looked at the Shroud that Mel Gibson presented  to them and one particular way the way it is   uh through the negative however they were able to  show it you can see the track lines of Jesus you  

Can see the the the actual um bamboo sticks that  they used to to initially hit him and then you   see the cat of nine tails the track lines they  look like the Grand Canyon in your skin and it   shocked them now these guys look at everything  from decapitations murders and everything  

Prior to this I did a movie a long time ago in New  York and I was with homicide and I got to see the   contortion of a face when someone gets murdered  and it’s hard to watch but when you start going  

Into this which is children there is something  that I can’t even fathom even with the protection   of almighty God because it took me two years  to get over this two years in the a friend of  

Mine Debbie came into the room and at around three  o’clock in the middle of the night she I was in a   chair and she heard me just weeping now I would go  into these black holes and I have no idea I don’t  

Remember it but this was all of the screaming  that I had to hear I didn’t want to hear it but   I had to hear it and then I was able to transform  that into the movie that you just saw when I took  

Asked Alejandro monteverdi to move to our DP to  take it and show him my eyeball so you would see   a 20-foot eye to see what Tim goes through to rip  his heart out now it’s not like uh this is what I  

Want to experience any more than I want to get on  a cross and have uh my heart broken I went through   hypothermia I had to have open heart surgery I was  electrocuted struck by lightning I understand the  

The the necessity of what I was going to have  to go through could help bring people back to   God to wake them up and quite frankly more people  now Jordan are more afraid of the devil than they  

Are of God because they want a happy Jesus and  the problem is is that eventually Jordan we all   are going to die eventually that that is going  to happen but people the the power of the devil  

Deceives to say no no you’re going to be around  for a long long time and and they never wake up   and eventually there’s a judgment and then you  have to decide or God decides not how you want  

To see yourself anymore but how God sees you and  how God sees you is who you really are and so   that’s how I I chose to to go at this particular  case I had no choice but to go in and I hear the  

Screams in my heart I hear the screams because of  the agents that I got to work with got to show me   things and they one particular time he says are  you sure you want to go further but I was weeping  

So hard I said this is what Tim goes through this  is what I got I got to see it in order to go into   there there to to take people to a level of will  you do something will you do something at some  

Point it ends for all of us and so the pain in my  heart is much better than the pain in the future   and if I have to see that to save my children to  motivate me to save my niece to tell my sister no  

Walking home at 13 years old from school is not a  good choice not a good choice my sister says to me   no I want my sister my daughter excuse me to have  the same kind of experience I have and I said no  

Not until this changes you need to understand  so and my sister is a good great mother but she   wasn’t aware because the media that’s supposed  to do a good job to tell the truth well they’re  

Going into that direction which is let’s kind of  twist it and change it and not talk about it or   the three letter agencies that aren’t telling the  truth go ahead Jordan how has this changed you how  

Is how is experiencing that material and having  to play it out changed you I I I’d give my life   and a heartbeat changed me I’m less concerned  about myself than I am about hurting I I will tell  

You this right now I would absolutely die if this  If This Were to change the world and get rid of   trafficking and pornography and all of the eight  arms of this octopus that has to be destroyed the  

Only way you can destroy is take the head out if  that hit I’d give my life for it in a heartbeat   Tim let me ask you a question Jim referred to  this is an awkward question I don’t know how to  

Progress with it exactly right but he said that he  tried to play you with a certain kind of innocence   and you know there’s a gospel line and the line  is unless you become as a little child you will  

In no way enter the kingdom of heaven and it’s  a very very subtle line because it doesn’t say   unless you stay as a child right it says unless  you become as a child and and that’s a very   it’s a very paradoxical injunction and  it means something like this it means  

If you ReDiscover the innocence and  humility and capacity for play and wonder   and open ended trust that you had as a child but  you still have all the wisdom that you have as an   adult after having seen the world then you have  entered into you might say a new domain and a  

More elevated form of being and Jim said that he  was struck when talking to you about uh it with   regard to this childlike innocence that he saw  on you which is very peculiar thing to observe   in someone who’s had to expose himself to all the  terrible things that you’ve encountered and so  

I don’t I don’t have a more fully developed  question than that I I guess I just like   your response to that set of observations I do  think I think I know what Jim’s talking about um when we’re doing operations as you see depicted in  sound of Freedom it’s some crazy stuff we’re going  

Into crazy places we’re talking to uh monsters  and demons and if I were to apply all the things   I I know the things that take me down the images  of children um I could be jaded and and less less  

Innocent um I think this might go back to the the  the the the the boss who asked me to start this   work back in 2002 by saying that we think you can  handle this because of your faith so when I I do  

Try to be a child like childlike when it comes  to my relationship with with God and there’s a   scripture that I repeat in my head constantly as  I am going into these dark places and that’s where   I become like a child through that recitation and  my relationship with God or even more particularly  

With Jesus um because it’s Jesus who says the line  and you’ve already quoted it Jordan uh better than   a millstone be placed around your neck and you  toss through the bottom of the seed and that you  

Should hurt one of these little ones um that’s so  powerful to me because it’s it’s so it it allows   me to read to read reduce everything to just an  innocent I hope childlike relationship with With  

My Savior with my god um because I know where he  stands on this and I might not know everything   and I don’t know how this is going to resolve in  my head I don’t know how I’m going to heal the  

Millions of of holes burned into my brain but I  do know that if I subject myself completely to to   an understanding and a testimony that that Jesus  believes something he gets mafioso this is cement   shoes kind of talk uh it’s not it’s not it’s not  flipping tables outside the temple I mean he’s  

Talking about violence he’s speaking violence  but it’s it’s righteous and that’s where he   stands on children being abused and that’s where  I find so there’s a there’s another idea there’s   another idea that lurks in the passion account  hey that that’s really quite stunning and horrible  

So the the passion story is an archetypal  tragedy and the reason for that is that   a tragedy is when something terrible happens  to someone but uh a more profound tragedy is   when the worst possible thing happens to the  least deserving person and so that’s the passion  

Story in some ways in a nutshell right you have  a man who by Universal admission even on the part   of his enemies is at minimum a very good man who  undergoes the worst possible sequence of betrayal  

And Punishment and so that’s the story of the  tragedy of human life writ large but there’s more   to it than that because there’s a mythological  insistence along with that that Christ was not   only crucified but that he had to descend into  the depths of Hell itself and Harrow it and what  

That means to me psychologically speaking let’s  say is that you’re called upon before rebirth   that’s a good way of thinking about it to not only  bear the brunt of the tragedy of existence but   to face malevolence head on right to go into  the deepest and darkest possible places and  

What what do you say it’s it’s and and well  redeeming them to the degree that that’s possible   simultaneously redeem yourself and so the  notion there is that the brightest possible   light is only possible through the descent into  the darkest possible realm of of Blackness and  

That actually goes beyond death into malevolence  itself now Jim said you know because you might   say well there’s nothing that you should be  more afraid of than death but Jim said you   know he’s appalled enough about the existence of  malevolence that he would be willing to give his  

Life to eradicate it and so that obviously  means that for Jim malevolence itself is a   more terrifying Specter than than mere death  or even mere suffering and then there is this   gospel notion that unless you’re willing to take  the weight of Hell onto yourself essentially um  

Voluntarily that you can’t go through that process  of descent and rebirth and that is associated in   the in the gospel accounts let’s say with that  rebirth into the spirit of childhood and so   you you have done what you could to face  the ultimate reaches of Darkness itself  

What has that done for you and then also you  made some very interesting comments about your   wife you know you said that in some ways you were  hoping she would tell you to you know be sensible  

And come home but she didn’t she told you to  go put yourself on the line and there’s a huge   story there that’s touched on in the movie but  but not delved into in any to any great regard  

Um how has your encounter with the darkness that  you’ve seen made you a better person and and what   has that done with your relationship with your  wife I think it’s it’s made me a better person   because the the weight that you speak of  that that is on your back is unbearable  

Unless you can give it to some other power in this  case in my case to Jesus himself and that’s what   to subject myself completely and repeat his words  in my mind because I know where he stands on it  

He’ll take it from me and I felt that I have  felt that in ways I can’t even articulate that   don’t make any sense on a scientific level I the  burden is lifted and that’s what gives me Clarity  

And courage to do things I otherwise wouldn’t  dream of doing uh in order to help children and   it’s it’s a concept that my wife understands in  fact I’ll tell you this she it’s like she morphed  

Into some kind of a therapist in that moment after  she told me that her her salvation might be on the   line she’s much more advanced than I am in every  way and especially spiritually and she helped me  

To see that uh very thing that give the burden  to to God and and then you can be but you have   to subject yourself like a child in order to do  that and recognize you can’t on your own do it  

But she she ran me through this exercise don’t  know where she got it maybe it was a download   from heaven but she said do you see the two paths  you’re going on either you’re going to Colombia  

And you do this operation and what does that look  like and and I said it looks horrifying it’s scary   it’s dark because there’s cobwebs I I mean I was  literally imagining this there’s there’s spiders  

There’s evil things and she said what’s the other  path and I said well the other path is is light   um it’s you know I I can see at 50 I get to  retire and then I don’t have to you know I I’m  

I’m paid a federal government salary my whole  life and benefits and that seems secure to me   and I that seems comfortable then she says close  your eyes and and you’re with your maker you’ve   passed through this life and you’re talking to  your maker and he has two questions for you one  

Could you have saved the kids and two did you  do it that’s your interview and she’s and and   I got it shocked me I thought oh that’s going to  be a bad interview uh if I don’t have the right  

Answer if I don’t make the right decision here  and then she says okay now go back to those two   paths what do you see and I’m telling you the the  cobwebs and creepy things we’re now on the path of  

Staying in my federal government comfortable job  I thought what might I lose what blessings might   not come and then she said what do you see down  the path of Colombia and she said I see I said I  

See warmth I see I can’t see everything but that’s  the path I want and I think that’s what that means   is I will give it to God and do the right thing  and subject myself like a child I hope that made  

Sense well well you know look the reason that  people lie and the reason they remain silent   is because they think that things  will be easier for them and better   at least in the short term but the psychological  literature on this is pretty damn clear I think  

I think clearer than any other element of The  Clinical Psychology literature which is that   you avoid things that stand in your way  that frighten you at your great peril   if you cower from them in silence or you turn away  seeking Security even or even sensible security  

You violate the principle of your own strength  and if you violate the principle of your own   strength you become weak and if you’re weak  there is no security like if you’re weak and   you have a pension you’re weak with a pension all  that’ll mean is that you’ll live longer in Terror  

That’s not helpful and the alternative and that  there’s also a an ethos in the biblical stories   in particular and it’s a very interesting ethos  it’s very much worth knowing and one is that   if you say the truth and and nothing else you’ll  have a immense Adventure as a consequence you  

Won’t know what’s going to happen to you and  you have to let go of your clinging to the   to the outcome you have to let go but the truth  will reveal the world the way it’s intended to  

Be revealed and the consequence for you will  be that you’ll have the adventure of your life   and the other part of that ethos is this and it  makes perfect sense to me I I can’t see how it  

Can be any other way which is that whatever makes  itself manifest as a consequence of the truth is   the best possible reality that could be manifest  even if you can’t see it and you know in my own  

Life I’ve been attacked many times by people who  were attempting to demolish my reputation and take   me out and that’s put my family at risk and many  times we’ve gone through this a lot and what we  

Have observed is that if we stick to our guns  and we say what we believe to be the case and   I say we because it’s a collaborative Enterprise  I’m always discussing things with my family that  

There’s a period of intense discomfort and the but  the the in the aftermath of that and that’s often   several months or sometimes even several years  later things switch around and reverse in in a   manner that brings benefits that can’t even be  fathomed so so and it is a matter of Faith right  

So the faith is something like this look are  you going to make your way through life with   silence and falsehoods are you going to make your  life your way through life with truth and there’s  

Going to be a price for the truth but your vision  showed you there was a price for the security too   right once once you allowed your imagination  to manifest itself you saw that the pathway of   security was actually the one that was covered  with spider webs demons and snakes and you know  

I see that I saw that with faculty members at  the University over and over they would take   the so-called secure path forward and all they did  was violate the Integrity of their own Souls right   all that security is false and obviously your  wife for some reason it’s quite the miraculous  

Part of that story I would say that your wife  was behind you like that especially because you   said you had six kids at the time you know so how  do you think she knew this you said her faith is  

More developed than yours and and that she knows  things you don’t but what was it about her life   did you think that enabled her to stand behind you  and this crazy Venture you went on when she had  

Every reason to make you mean you were the movie  says you were within what months of vesting your   pension how many 12 weeks something like that I I  don’t I don’t I can’t remember the exact time but  

Yeah that was the my accountant came to me and  showed me how much how many millions of dollars   this would amount to that I was walking away from  it was ridiculous I want to say 12 million dollars  

Or something a number I couldn’t even fathom but  you’re walking away from that and that really   tossed me and that’s the thing that led me to  mccatherine and said this is what we’d be walking  

Away from why does she have this thing um I it’s  a mystery to me I I can say this having having   given birth and raised six children I’ve watched  that process it’s there’s something I think that  

Happens to to women at least in the case of  my wife uh that um there’s some insight that   comes from that process and and and childbirth  and rearing a child that she’s had to rely on   God just to get through that process and then  have this little creature that you’re in charge  

Of I I think her relationship with God allowed  through motherhood allowed her to have insights   um that I didn’t have I think she came with  certain gifts as well that before this life   uh but whatever it was she saw immediately and  and on the spot was able to run me through that  

Exercise that really is consistent with with your  understanding of that process uh Dr Peterson so   um I don’t know she’s a miracle she’s a  miracle to me and none of this would have   happened without her well okay so you you quit  your job and you put your pension on the line and  

Your wife was not only fully on board with that  but perversely enough encouraged you to do so   how has it how has the financial support that  made your continued existence and also the   operations that you’ve undertaken how has that  manifested itself since like you you don’t have  

Your pension and the government behind you but  obviously you’ve gathered resources around you   personally and and practically  how tell me how that came about   well I’ll add this piece because I that was my big  concern and Catherine said to me and she believed  

It this is all in that same conversation she  said I don’t care if we end up living in a tent   we will not go back to our maker instead we  didn’t try to help these children so that’s  

So that helped ease my mind because I thought  well then okay if we lose our house uh now   the the the blessings did come uh you know  uh Glenn Beck was the person who actually   funded the rescue operation that you see  depicted in the film that very first one  

Um he got our he got us started put a huge amount  of faith and frankly risk in in in in doing that   um but that was going to get us only about six  to eight months before we would be in trouble  

But what happened was the success happened the  peace that I felt in making the decision to go   was that New Path that I couldn’t see everything  but it felt right it felt good it felt Godly and  

I knew it’d be okay and we’ve never had a worse  month in the month before we’ve only grown with   success spread success donations start coming  in Opportunities come in and frankly I think   I’ll be better off financially uh as I look  at my future than I would have been otherwise  

Right now you we we should just dwell on that  for a minute so we just we just won’t dwell on   how unlikely that is say so let’s let’s just go  through this so you make this crazy decision to  

Quit your job and to forgo your your pension even  though you’ve basically vested it and you’re well   into your career you’re to the point where in  principle you could have contemplated retiring   and sitting to drink my Ties on the beach in  the Caribbean which I wouldn’t recommend by  

The way as a as a retirement plan and instead you  decide that and with your wife that you guys are   willing to you know risk living in a tent with  your kids but you’re going to do this come hell  

Or high water and the consequence of that is that  perversely enough you’re actually more financially   secure and you have more opportunities  than you would have otherwise had by a lot   right so that’s worth thinking about right  that’s really we’re thinking about because  

You threw yourself all in which is what you’re  supposed to do and not only did that work on the   fight side because you have been able to rescue  these children and to continue this endeavor but   none of the things that you thought you  would lose you actually ended up losing  

That’s correct and I and I I’m thinking of  the words you just said five minutes ago about   when you take on the challenges you you lose that  weakness that you otherwise would have I’d rather  

I’d you know I I don’t want to be weak with with a  pension like you said I I was able to be stronger   and that strength is the thing that frankly  allowed me to expand my uh possibility of making  

More income and and doing more things in fact  I often Journal um Jordan often when I have the   biggest challenges of my life that come and hit  in the face with this or that I I take note what  

Blessings came what good things came and sometimes  it’s ninety percent of the good things before me   sprung out of that horrific challenge that the  darts thrown at me whatever it was and so the   principle that you’re teaching really has played  out uh accurately in my life over and over again  

Yeah yeah yeah well I I think that’s well it makes  sense in some sense look I mean if we want to just   think about it practically I mean you’re going to  become stronger more confident more credible and a   better Communicator in precise proportion to the  burdens that you decide voluntarily to confront  

And master like obviously because how could it  be any other way and then what that’s going to   mean is that when you go communicate with people  and you tell them what you’re doing they’re much   more likely to jump on board because you have the  Charisma that goes along with having the stories  

To tell and those encounters to to relate and the  success you’ve generated and and so then people   are going to offer to help you’re not even going  to have to ask them and so let me let me ask you  

About that you talked about Glenn Beck who else  has been instrumental in helping your operation   grow and providing you with support you mentioned  Tony Robbins as well and I’ve got to know Tony a   bit over the last last year or so I mean he’s an  absolutely remarkable person and I think he might  

Be the most charismatic person I’ve ever met which  is really saying something because I’ve met some   very charismatic people and he’s quite the monster  in the world and he’s done an awful lot of good   and and he’s obviously supporting he’s supporting  you as well and is on board with this project and  

So how did that come about well Tony Robbins is  in fact uh the the single largest donor to to   our operation I’m super super close with him his  his wife as well Sage Beautiful People beautiful   souls uh it came about in the most amazing way  uh during one of his big Mastermind conferences  

And a a Convention Center of some sort there was  a woman who raised her hand when Tony asks about   bucket list uh projects if you had an excess of  whatever what would you do with it she raised   her hand and said I’d support a group called  operation Underground Railroad Tony says what  

Is that three minutes later he says I’ll donate  I’ll match whatever someone gives me right now to   help rescue children and and and that’s where  the relationship was born he called me a few  

Days later and said is this real I said I felt it  was I said why don’t you come down to Haiti with   me we’re about to do an operation and you can  see how very real it is and he did and he saw  

And that converted him to our cause so what’s on  your plate next what what where is this going as   far as you’re concerned and what sort of impact  what sort of impact have you had in sheer numbers  

Um why do you think you’re not going to get  taken out because it seems to me that you’re in a   situation where that’s you know of reasonable high  probability given who you’re dealing with and what  

Do you hope to accomplish over the next what do  you hope to accomplish over the next while and and   what can people do to help well so I’ve changed  quite a bit of how I look at the playing field of  

Human trafficking I can no longer do operations  I’ve been in the media too much especially with   this film I’ve turned a lot of my attention to  uh the fact that in what I call spiritual warfare  

Children are targeted like never before I was  uh I was on the Capitol Hill last week and this   congressman is telling me how do we wake people  up to the fact that all these unaccompanied minors  

Are being shoved into America and we don’t know  where they are and and I said well your problem   is you’re not connecting all the dots all the ways  in which children are being hurt not only these 85  

000 missing children that are now on the belly of  of the largest potentially child sex Market in the   world um but at the same time that’s happening  you have groups trying to get rid of the name   pedophile and call them minor attracted persons at  the same time you’re you’re sexualizing children  

Giving them what I used to be able to arrest you  for giving children now teachers in California   and other states are giving this in the name of  of liberal liberating children’s sexually or sex   education and now a 13 year old can consent to  gender mutilation and inject them have themselves  

Injected with all sorts of chemicals that might  ruin their reproductive system well what are you   doing consent to do that equals consent eventually  to to sex with a 50 year old pedophile and so if  

You you got to connect all these things and so I  I for the first time in my life Jordan I’m looking   at the United States of America and I’m saying  I’m saying look I used to think I might be out  

Of a job because we eradicated human trafficking  I am now thinking I might be out of a job because   the very laws that protect children and allow us  to go after their captors are being and will be  

Decaying and eroded with this crazy culture that  is taking children in the name of liberating them   and in fact is enslaving them so you know I  I interviewed this girl Chloe Cole who had   a double mastectomy when she was 15 and who had  puberty blockers and went through the whole bloody  

Gamut of incompetent lying therapists and sadistic  butchering surgeons and they transformed her   sexually and then she talked to me about her  dating experiences in high school now you can   just imagine this you know it’s complicated  enough for a young man or a young woman in  

High school to navigate the sexual Shoals let’s  say and establish a reasonable relationship or   even a reasonable sequence of relationships  if everything is roughly normal or something   approximating ideal but Chloe put herself way  out on the fringes having done what she did  

And that made that took her out of the dating  pool in high school for her compatriots and so   she turned to online dating and you can imagine  the sort of people who attempted to pick her up  

And she didn’t refer to that an awful lot in our  interview but she referred to it enough so that   I got a real flavor of the sort of people who uh  were more than perversely willing to strike up a  

Relationship with her often much older as you  pointed out and so you know that that freedom   that she was hypothetically offered that only  required the sacrifice of her breasts let’s say   uh the wounds of which by the way have never  completely healed so that’s perfectly goddamn  

Delightful and you know she talked about  her dissent into that perverse underworld   of of deviant sexual attraction and so uh yeah  there’s not a lot of freedom on that front Jim   um what are you up to next like you finished  this movie it’s going to open up on July 4th  

Um what what’s what’s next for you on the project  front and and also on the personal front in terms   of of your commitment to continuing the  work that you’re starting with this movie   well it goes to the next chapter um which  is on Haiti and that’s the next part of Tim  

Um when they went down and did this Haiti  Mission and this is a much better script   than the first one written by the same director  uh and Rod Barr Alejandro monteverdi wrote this   so I plan to do that film and um and then of  course I’m doing the resurrection of the Christ  

With Mel Gibson so I think that’s going to be  I think for sure it’s one film but it might be   two films I think and when when so and what  do you see what do you foresee happening on  

The uh on the theatrical release front I mean  I have the have the typical companies that are   involved in theatrical release in movies being  on board with the release of sound of Freedom   or have have you run into like enthusiastic  reception or resistance what’s happened on that  

Front well we had a lot of resistance it took  us four years to get where we’re at right now   um you know like The Passion of the Christ nobody  saw that as a of a financially feasible film same  

Thing with this who’s going to want to watch  a film about traffic children that’s why it   wasn’t about that it was it it points in that  direction but it’s really in the face of evil   can good still Triumph and that’s what this film  is so it’s quite inspirational you know well it  

Is a classic in many ways it is a classic action  adventure film I mean it’s based on a true story   but it’s got a very solid narrative driving line  I mean it’s not fundamentally making its Appeal  

On the moral side I mean there is an appeal on  the moral side don’t get me wrong but that’s   not good enough for a movie like a movie has to  carry its own weight as an artistic Endeavor and  

It has to be well plotted and well well acted  and or just degenerates into kind of moralistic   propaganda I don’t think this movie does that  at all I also didn’t think that the chosen did   that angel Studios other major production it never  degenerated into sentimental moralizing thank God  

And give that but something like that’ll just flop  at the box office anyways and I certainly couldn’t   see any reason after having watched this movie not  to think that this could be a commercial success   I mean it’s a very exciting movie we’re selling  out right now where our biggest War right now  

Is to get more theaters the big studios control  those and the Distributors have to decide whether   or not and this happened on The Passion of the  Christ whether to go and go where the people are  

Um and so the people are calling in right now  to you know ask for these theaters they’re not   just going to angel.com I’ve known many people  that have gone in and literally bought out all   theaters uh to do this and so we’re hoping that  this continues because we won’t be able to serve  

The public we just don’t have enough theaters  right now well that’s that’s a good problem to   have I would say and that should get also get you  the kind of publicity that should also further   distribution of the film and of course there’s  alternative routes now too I mean Matt Walsh had  

Tremendous success Distributing what is a woman  on Twitter I think they got 170 million views   and you know I don’t know how successful that  was commercially and of course that’s a problem   because Financial issues matter but there’s  definitely multiple venues now where a film  

Like this can be can be distributed and of course  Angel Studios had a hell of a success Distributing   what they produced on the on the chosen  front using rather unorthodox channels online   and we’re fortunate enough uh Jordan to get  Elon Musk he he actually tweeted out a couple  

Weeks ago with the trailer and opened up Twitter  as a free home for distribution um uh and that   and they’re gonna you’re gonna we’re gonna see a  Twitter release uh I think mid-july so that that  

Will be fun to see what happens there oh so that’s  already in play all right well all right well look   gentlemen we’re running out of time on the YouTube  front um as everybody watching and listening or at  

Least to some people watching and listening no I  do add another half an hour of interview on The   Daily wire plus side and so I think we’ll turn  our attention to that I’m gonna find out from   from Tim and Jim what developmental route they  took to the destination that they arrived at  

Um I haven’t done that with two people before but  I think that will be quite entertaining and so   um I’m interested in how people’s Destinies make  themselves manifest across time or you might say   how they’re calling uh makes itself uh makes its  appearance in their life because things do call to  

People you know everybody has problems that beset  them that are their problems and everybody has   opportunities that back into them that are their  opportunities and that’s kind of a mysterious   what would you say Bargain and interplay  between the psyche and the world and uh I’m  

Endlessly curious about how that happens and  so we’re going to follow down that road as we   continue this conversation  on the daily word plus side   um by the way for those of you who are watching  and listening if you’re thinking about uh throwing  

Some support the daily wire plus way is probably  a good time to think about doing that because uh   they and I for that matter have been under a  fair bit of pressure from YouTube in the last  

Month I’ve had three of my interviews taken  down and I suspect there’s a couple on the in   the pipelines that are also going to raise the  hackles of the wrong people whoever the hell   they are lurking behind the scenes and so uh  yeah yeah well you never know right you can’t  

Tell what rules you broke and you can’t tell  who’s enforcing the censorship rules um which   is real really not good on any front so anyways  we’re going to turn our attention over there   um thank you to Jim Caviezel and Tim Bellard  for talking today uh I really enjoyed your film  

I’m I’m looking forward to watching how the public  will receive it and and what the consequences will   be and wish you both luck in your future endeavors  and uh and yeah and Tim Mouse I will hook up hook  

You up your wife up with my wife and it’d be real  interesting to have them talk about you know how   she saw what you were doing and and why she threw  her weight behind it because there’s quite a story  

There as well as far as I can tell I’m very  much looking forward to watching that interview   all right gentlemen it was good to talk  to both of you and uh thank you everyone   watching and listening thanks for your  time and attention pay some attention  

To this movie if you’re inclined you  bet guys you bet good to meet you both

Video Tags: Jordan Peterson,Jordan B Peterson,psychology,psychoanalysis,existentialism,maps of meaning,free speech,freedom of speech,personality lectures,personality and transformations,Jordan perterson,Dr Peterson

Video Duration: 01:36:27