What to Know About Seed Oils, Raw Milk, and the Food Pyramid | Sally Fallon Morell

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There’s too much money riding on seed oils. They can’t produce addictive, empty, junk food, processed food without the seed oil. For decades, Sally Felon Morell has led a grassroots movement to see healthy foods in every household in America. She’s the president of the Weston Price Foundation. You need to get in the kitchen. Doesn’t mean you have to spend hours in the kitchen, but you need to get in the kitchen and learn how to produce healthy food for your family. In this episode, she explains what’s wrong with our modern diet and calls for a return to traditional nutrient-dense foods for better health. Animal fats are good for you. They’re not going to give you heart disease. Quite the opposite. They’re very stable and they support good health. They support heart health. This is American Thought Leaders and I’m Yana Kellik. Sally Fallon, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders. Thank you, Yan. I’m very pleased to be here. So, not too long ago, I had never heard about any issue with seed oils. Today, we’re constantly hearing about seed oils and potential problems with them. And it turns out that you had something to do with this, your work. So, so what’s going on with seed oils? Yes, we were, one of our founders was Mary Enig, a lipid uh scientist who had been beating the drum about the dangers of the seed oils. uh ever since she got her PhD and she had done research on them. She did a lot of work on the trans fats which by the way led to their uh b being banned from the food supply but the liquid oils and the sort of thickened liquid oils that we get in spreads. They’re still here. Why should we be concerned about seed oils? Well, animal fats are expensive and the uh food industry needs a cheap oil. And this started in the 1890s when they developed the stainless steel press, which allowed them to get oil out of seeds that you couldn’t do that before. So the first one was cottonseed oil and then they could get oil out of um corn which had never been done before and then um canola which is rape seed and soybeans. So uh they they started using these instead of the animal fats and they had a big campaign to make you think that these seed oils were a healthy alternative to animal fats. But what so but they’re not somehow no they’re not. They’re not. They um the the problem with the oils is that they’re fragile. Any any liquid oil is fragile and it oxidizes easily and it breaks down in the body into simple molecules called aldahhides. Not to get too technical, but there is an aldahhide that you know about. It’s called formaldahhide. And I think it’s very interesting that the undertakers are saying they don’t need as much formaldahhide anymore to uh cure or preserve these bodies. There’s it’s already there. And this is coming from the seed oils and they have been uh implicated. They’re they’re carcinogenic. They know that they have been implicated in heart disease and many other conditions. And infertility is is another thing that uh they lead to. These things are ubiquitous. They are everywhere. So, you don’t I I I’d never heard anything about like why would you have something that’s known carcinogenic? Like this is this this doesn’t make a terrible amount of sense to most people. So, we have to have to kind of back up a little bit. Follow the money. I mean, it’s much less expensive to use soybean oil or corn oil and uh then butter. Butter is a very expensive fat or lard or tallow. Uh those are the three main ones. And then there’s also what I call the fruit oils, which is palm oil, coconut oil, palm kernel oil. Um, these are much healthier than the seed oils because they’re more saturated. And you know, the saturated fats have been demonized, but the saturated fats are the good fats. They’re the stable fats that don’t break down and the fats that traditional people prized and always made sure they they ate with their food. I mean, I’m thinking it back to growing up in the 80s, like we were you we were literally taught the exact opposite thing, right? The margarine is better. It’s like as a society, we agreed to believe this. Well, it was a tremendous marketing campaign starting with Crisco, which means crystallized cotton seed oil, and it was partially hydrogenated cottonseed oil. And this was pushed relentlessly starting with a book called The Story of Krisco in which they said that American housewives, if they used Krisco instead of Lard, they were more modern, their houses would smell better, they were cleaner, they had a cleaner house, and their children would have better character if they used Crisco instead of lard. I mean, it was brilliant advertising campaign. And that book, The Story of Krisco, is still used in classes on advertising today. What is the evidence that uh and you’re we’re saying this kind of broadly, seed oils, um that that have all these problems that you’re talking about? What is the evidence base for that? Well, there is a lot of evidence. I talk I give it all in my book, Nourishing Fats. But for example, in the early days, and this is in the, you know, about the time you were going to school in the 1980s, uh, they gave animals a carcinogen and one group was fed saturated fat and one group was fed unsaturated fat like a seed oil and the ones who were fed saturated fat did not get cancer and the ones who were fed the seed oils did get cancer. So, um, there were a lot of studies like that. There was a several groups in the country who were doing these studies, but you never hear about them, but they’re there. They’re right in the literature. What about um you know, actually, I think my favorite oil, olive oil, right? How does that fit into the picture? Because that’s ancient, right? Yes. Olive oil is a fruit oil. And it’s easy to get out of the olive with a stone press. So, you don’t have to heat it to remove it. And it’s as soon as it comes out of the olive, it smells good and and tastes good. Olive oil is also very stable. It’s not saturated, but it’s monounsaturated, which is just about as stable as a saturated fat. So, really, it all comes down to just going back to what you said earlier, it’s about the stability of the oil ultimately. Exactly. And and in the seeds, it’s tightly held in there. So, when you eat the seed, it hasn’t oxidized. M but when you crush these seeds with a stainless steel roller press you get this polyunsaturated oil and by the way what comes out of the seeds is a foul smelling gunk that has to be further processed heated very hot several times and remember these oils are fragile and then when you get the oil in the bottle you’re told it’s okay to cook with it so you’re heating it again. I see. Well, so then you would distinguish between what they call extra virgin, which is this cold pressed olive oil and the hot pressed. Still more common, I think. Yes. Well, you do want the extra virgin. Yeah. You want the cold pressed. So, it’s always the least processed thing. That’s what we’re going for here. Exact. And I would say the most traditional thing. Palm oil is traditional in Africa. Uh coconut oil is traditional in the, you know, tropical regions. And olive oil is traditional in the Mediterranean. And uh mankind has used these oils for thousands and thousands of years and they’re still here. So it hasn’t wiped them out, you know. Okay. There’s this huge focus on looking at traditional ways. But give me a sense of where this whole idea come from. This is this has been around for quite some time. I only heard and for full disclosure, I only heard of it for the first time about six months ago when we met at an event. So okay right so we were set up the Weston A Price Foundation was set up to uh honor and disseminate the work of Weston Price who was a dentist who had this unique idea back in the 30s and 40s to study isolated people. He called them primitive people and that was a compliment. He was not trying to put them down and to see what their health was like and if he could find healthy people especially people with healthy teeth. He was a dentist. Uh what were they eating? And he went to he found 14 groups throughout the uh world who had perfect teeth, no cavities, no infection and very broad faces. So their teeth were naturally straight. Nobody needed braces. And along with this they uh seemed to be perfectly healthy. No degenerative disease. Uh the other thing that was noticed at the time was how easily the women had their babies. So he found uh 14 groups and then the question was what were these people eating? Now the diets were very different. You had Alaska and you had the South Seas but there were some commonalities and the real commonality was these diets were very high in minerals and particularly high in what we call the fats soluble vitamins A, D, and K. And where do we get these fats soluble vitamins? We get them from animal fats. We get them from organ meats. We get them from shellfish and certain seafoods. Uh these are what we call the sacred foods and they were highly prized especially prized for having healthy babies. And so our mission is to bring people back to these foods to uh get people to eat butter again. Whole milk. By the way, egg yolks are a sacred food as well. Very rich in nutrients and fats soluble activators. So, it’s it’s going back to the type of diet that nourished uh obviously healthy people. Did people traditionally really have better health? Right now, we have a life expectancy has been starting to come down in the US, but for the longest time, it’s been going up. Two things going on here. First of all, in the 1700s and 1800s, life in the cities was filthy. You had piles of stinking horse manure everywhere. No, no sewage, no water treatment, no refrigeration, and the lifespan, the death rate of children up to the age of five was 50%. So that’s a factor that brought the long, you know, longevity down. But if you raised in the country on real food, raw milk, and ate butter, which all Americans did, uh that that we did have a long lifespan. And among these traditional people, although we don’t know the lifespan, nobody was keeping records, but there were elders in every community and they led a very important role in these communities. Well, and also you had a higher likelihood of, you know, dying due to accidents or trauma, carnivore attack or something. Carnivore attack. It was a dangerous uh dangerous lifestyle for especially for the men. They took great care about having children. They spaced their babies so they were three years apart. They um had special foods to prepare them for pregnancy. And Price did not observe uh you know high infant any inform infant mortality. Actually basically you’re saying there was a side effect of civilization so to speak or certain certain ways in which manifested which became really bad for people which of course we know is true in these types of scenarios. you were describing well the introduction to the west. What did the west bring? They they brought alcohol, sugar, then white flour and uh tea and all of these things um they gobbled up immediately. They tasted so different. And what he observed was in the first generation of eating these foods of commerce as he called them uh the first thing that happened was rampant tooth decay causing tremendous amount of suffering because the foods had gotten there but not the dentists. And then the second generation it took just one generation the children born looked different. They had more narrow faces, uh, less space in the sinus passages because he was watching the teeth very closely. The teeth were crooked. They were crooked and crowded. And that’s when TB came along. And he thought that TB was due to a mal foration of the lungs. The lungs hadn’t been formed properly just like the mouth hadn’t been formed properly. Fascinating. And so did and has there been further work done to look at this? Well, nobody really followed Dr. Price. There were a few doctors who implemented his diet. One was Dr. Pottinger in California who wrote a very interesting book who uh he did studies with cats and he noted that in cats if you give them a diet that’s not the appropriate diet for cats, uh you get degeneration for three generations and then the fourth generation there are no more cats. So there’s a f fertility effect basically. really there’s a by the third generation and that’s where we are here and what are we seeing? We’re seeing a decline in fertility and we we believe we’re at the 11th hour and it we’re highly motivated to bring our message to prospective parents so they can feed these nutrient dense foods to themselves to prepare for pregnancy and then to their children as they grow. But so this and this is really important actually because I think I see the argument now. The argument is basically in uh earlier civil earlier civilizations or earlier uh you know what what price called you know kind of primitive living groups so to speak people ate as well as possible and they figured out given what was available that would maximize their ability to have children. That was a you know probably the most one of the most important things you could actually do. When they killed an animal, the first thing they did was eat the organ meats. And the organ meats are hundred, even a thousand times more nutritious than the muscle meats. And then they ate the muscle meats. They always ate the muscle meats with the fat if they never ate lean meat. And we do have a scientific reason for that. And the plant foods were there. And almost every diet there were plant foods, carbohydrate foods. It’s not like we’re saying don’t eat vegetables or don’t eat sweet potatoes, but the animal foods were the primary and they were the chief source of nutrition. Fascinating. What about you? What about what is your backstory here? I mean, how did you get involved in working with the foundation? Well, I came from an interesting family. Uh, I would say my parents were probably the first foodies in the world. They were very interested in food and they traveled a lot and my mother was a great cook. So she’d come home and make casualt fil filet of soulman or whatever. So and she always used butter. I’m I’m very grateful. So we grew up on butter and um I had a daughter who was a beautiful little girl and that’s when this message started to come out that don’t give your kids whole milk and don’t give them butter and don’t give them eggs. give them cereal, not eggs, you know. And I knew that this was wrong. It’s just like you. I felt it inside. And it was just around that time I read Dr. Price’s book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. And um it just I showed me that I was on the right path. So right now, probably the last thing you want to be seeing is a pitch from Yan, but I want to encourage you to subscribe to the Epoch Times. It is how we keep the lights on. It is how we keep these interviews coming. Just hit the link below and subscribe to the Epoch Times. You mentioned raw milk earlier and uh you know this has become such a amazingly controversial thing and I’ll tell you something about when I grew up right my mother actually had been an agricultural inspector in Poland and the sanitation was not good for her. If milk was not pasteurized that was you know a death nail. That’s kind of what I grew up with. Okay. I still remember I’m going to tell the story. I was in France. I was uh I had ma made a deal with a woman who lived in Paris to help her out in her summer cottage and I would get to stay and sort of you know check out the countryside. She took me to a farm um and uh you know I tried raw milk but I I I almost didn’t because I wait you can just drink it your mother said you can drink it straight from the cow and she’s like are you crazy? Anyway, so apparently in in the French countryside, it was perfectly a normal thing to do. But why is raw milk so controversial? Yes. Well, we know a lot more about milk uh today than we did in the 1960s, let’s say, where it was just assumed to be dangerous and full of germs. We we now know that there’s an a large number of antimicrobial compounds in raw milk that kill pathogens but support the growth of the good guys in the gut. And these uh components protect the gut wall. And we just keep finding these wonderful things in raw milk. And they’re all destroyed by pasteurization. And what happens in pasteurization we now know is that the proteins are so warped and distorted that they become allergenic. So more and more people are allergic to milk. It’s the number one allergy. Um consumption of pasteurized milk is relentlessly declining in spite of all the publicity campaigns, the milk mustache campaign and everything because it makes the kids have a tummy ache or makes them break out in a rash. Uh the other thing about raw milk is that every single vitamin and mineral in the milk has a special enzyme to ensure 100% assimilation and we don’t have that in any other food. So 100% of the iron, 100% of the calcium, 100% of the B1, they’re all absorbed and uh nourish the infant. And you can just I I wish someone would do a study comparing our western price babies brought up on raw milk and babies brought up on pasteurized milk. I I heard from the uh NIH director that they’re looking to do all sorts of studies these days on. So maybe this you could make a proposal perhaps. I would love to. Yeah. Yes. But what we have done at the Weston 8 Price Foundation is work on the state level to liberalize the laws. When we started in only 27 states could raw milk, could farmers provide raw milk in some form or another. And uh now it’s 47 states. So we’re just lacking three states now. And there’s what I call the Amish Empire. Amish are taking raw milk all over the country. And wonderful. It’s wonderful. Well, so, so tell me about your relationship cuz this is exactly what I was thinking. When I think of raw milk, I think of Amish production. Uh, and so, um, what’s what’s the connection? So, every Amish knows about the West Price Foundation, I guess. No, they don’t. But I would say the Pennsylvania Amish started this delivery system and um, it just grew and grew and I think this is why it’s actually been legalized in many states because it was it was there anyway. Uh when I um we got the first uh pet milk permit in the state of Maryland and there was already pet milk in Maryland from Pennsylvania. What what does that mean? It means it has to have a label on it. It says it’s for dogs and cats. I see. It’s kind of a little loophole. Okay. Okay. And I said, “Look, you’re allowing Pennsylvania farmers to sell this milk in Maryland. You’re not letting a Maryland farmer do this.” And so they had to they had to give us the permit. I see. I see. And so you’re saying it’s pet milk, but if someone happens to drink the pet milk, that’s that’s up to them. Yeah, it’s up to them. I see. Fascinating. And I have to say, Yan, I am a big advocate for uh strict cleanliness in the dairy. And um we can teach farmers how to produce milk. That’s we get zero caulifform when we test it. So, you know, our milk is clean as clean or cleaner than pasteurized milk. Now you’re saying ours to mean like milk that you were producing on your farm. Yes. Okay. So, well, tell me about that, too. Yes. So, well, this is um my husband and my folly of buying this uh beautiful little farm and we have a small dairy herd. We produce raw cheese and somewhere along the line, I was able to get the pet milk permit. But I guess refrigeration is an important component here. It absolutely is. Yes. Because even if your milk starts off clean, if it’s not refrigerated, it will ferment. And by the way, when pass when raw milk goes off, shall we say, it ferments. It actually becomes safer because it becomes more acidic. But when pasteurized milk goes off, it rots and that is not safe. So in many ways, the raw milk is actually safer than pasteurized milk. I’ve covered at the Epoch Times a number of, you know, controversies, I think, about raw milk in Pennsylvania, the Amish communities. People have been threatened even with jail for this kind of thing. Why? Why is that? Well, it’s so foreign to the health departments, and they think they’re protecting the public. And I’m not criticizing anybody. They’ve just had the wrong education. You know, they haven’t kept up with the science. But nothing gets the dander up of the public than going after raw milk because you have what I call the raw milk moms who see how healthy their children are on this product and they get out there, they get on the phone, they protest, they they go to the trials. So, and well, and I I guess this raw milk, you were talking about cow’s milk here. Um I I guess it’s because it’s close to human mother’s milk. Well, all all raw all mammals produce milk. Okay. And it’s all close to human milk. Some has more fat than camels milk has more salt in it, which is kind of interesting. But all over the world, mankind has nourished themselves with the milk of mammals, cows, goats, sheep, camels, water buffalo, reindeer. And the cultures that have herds are at an advantage because they always have available this healthy food which has this unbelievable absorption that you described. I didn’t know that. And so they all you’re saying all milk basically functions like that. Yes. Yes. Fascinating. Cow’s milk. Um, I I prefer it to goat milk because it’s richer in B12 and B6, but some people find that goat milk is easier to digest. So, you know, everyone’s different. But Western A Price, you do advocacy for raw milk obviously and you you know, you’re that’s part of your own your own interest as well. What what other work do you do other and and of course there’s the Nourishing Traditions cookbook which I know like I don’t know how many people have been using but it’s become an incredibly popular well it came out in 1996 and my co-author Mary Anig and I felt that we needed something else to to look be looking at the science to keep this in front of people all the time. So we set up the West and A Price Foundation which publishes a journal. So our number one role is education. Uh but we also do advocacy and we have is not just telling people about the good foods. It’s helping them find these good foods because let’s face it uh you can’t look in a newspaper and find raw milk, you know. So uh we set up a website realmilk.com to find the raw milk and then we have over 400 local chapters who keep a local food list. So, let’s just say you move to Alama, California, and you want to find the raw milk. You call your local chapter, and they’ll tell you where it is. Or you want to find pastured eggs or some kind of food delivery group or whatever. The local chapter will help you find that. A lot of people think we’re sort of this homesteading movement, but I have to always correct that. Not many people can afford the luxury of being homesteaders. What I’m concerned about is getting these foods to the single mom in living in an apartment in Brooklyn. This is the group that we need to meet and this is what we’re trying to do. Well, that so this is a this is a very great point. How available is it in situations like that? Well, uh it depends. Food desert, you know, you hear about food deserts, for example. Right. Right. Well, we do have a lot of deliveries. I believe there was a delivery in Brooklyn to a church basement for a while. I’m not quite sure what’s going now on now, but there’s there’s definitely food deliveries all all over the country. Mhm. And so it’s realm.com where people that are interested. Realm.com presumably if you’re not convinced, you’re watching this and you’re like, um, I don’t know about this raw milk thing, but but I want to not Well, not quite, but but I I I feel like I really want to read the science. Do you Is that on realm milk.com? you have that information provided. Absolutely. We have a lot of articles about the science. Ted Beiels who did some great epidemiology for us has uh articles there. So pretty much all your questions about milk will be on that. Fantastic. What are the sort of biggest lessons? One lesson I just got is that raw milk is good. Yes. It’s healthy and you know as long as it’s refrigerated. Yes. But what what would other sort of topline lessons that we could learn from from Right. Well, animal fats are good for you. They’re not going to give you heart disease. Quite the opposite. They’re very stable and they support good health. They support heart health. And where did that idea come from? Like I I mean I I started learning this maybe a decade ago that this was wrong or maybe even a little more than that. But well, you’re let’s you’re going to promote your product which is vegetable oils. And the way it’s done is you demonize the competition. What’s the competition? It’s animal fats. Butter and lard especially. So how are you going to demonize butter and lard? Well, you’re going to pick things that are in butter and lard that are not in vegetable oils, saturated fats and cholesterol, and you’re going to make those into a villain. And that’s exactly what they did. And uh I have written extensively on this showing how the early science they used to justify the demonization of the fats that had kept us healthy for thousands of years uh was just very flimsy very flimsy science. As we’re filming we’re kind of days away from an initial report on you know tackling chronic disease right from from HHS going to come out on the 22nd. This is all your answer here right? Yes, it’s to go back to the foods that didn’t give us chronic disease that kept us from having chronic disease. These traditional people who were eating liver and raw milk and animal fats, they didn’t have heart disease. They didn’t have cancer. They the Dr. Price talked to a doctor who’d been among the Eskimos for 40 years and he said he never saw a case of cancer or heart disease or kidney trouble or anything. uh and these people who were eating their traditional diet and that diet was 80% of calories was animal fat. And he had never seen any chronic disease. So raw milk is good. Animal fats are good. Good. Yes. The other big campaign that we’ve had is about the soy and the problems with soy. Not just the soybean oil, but the soy protein that they’re putting in all the foods, all the fake foods made out of soy. Uh soy first of all is very difficult to digest and it has enzyme inhibitors in it that depress pancreatic function very difficult to digest. It’s also um a grogen it’s hard on the thyroid gland depresses thyroid function. And the third thing is soy contains plant types of estrogens. And we had a very terrible experiment take place in the prisons in Illinois. We corresponded with a lot of these prisoners and u when Bleggoyovich became governor he wanted to reduce the budget. So they serve the whole diet was soy, fake soy meat, soy in the baked goods, you know, soybean oil. And what happened was tremendous health problems occurred, especially thyroid problems. And the men grew breasts and um they called it chemical castration actually is is what happened to these men. And when they got out, they were so sick that they had to go into disability. Now, they finally stopped because, and I don’t think it was really because of our efforts, but because it just got too expensive for them to to deal with to deal with the health problems associated with with that with that diet. You know, there’s millions, if not billions of people that are eating tofu daily, frankly, seem to be in better health in in some cases. Right. Well, we hear from the ones who get really sick, but you have to distinguish between soy consumption in Asia today, which is much higher than it was traditionally. And traditionally, it was about uh a tablespoon in Japan per day. Usually tofu cut in little cubes in the fish broth. And the fish broth is supports thyroid health. So, they kind of balanced each other out. And then in China, it was about a teaspoon a day as a flavoring as a soy sauce. So it wasn’t a source of protein in these diets. The main source of calories in the traditional Chinese diet was pork and the main source of calories in the traditional Japanese diet was fish. It wasn’t soybeans. I mean, the soybean industry blames us for killing their big campaign to get everybody eating soy. I see. Any other, you know, kind of topline? Uh, well, another one is salt. Mhm. Uh, traditional cultures all had a source of salt. They valued salt. Salt consumption in America at the turn of the century was about three teaspoons a day, very little heart disease. Now it’s a teaspoon and a half a day, which does satisfy our requirements for sodium and chlorine. But they they want to bring this cut this in half. Uh we need salt and by the way babies need salt for the growth of their brains and for all sorts of things for hormone production. You need salt for hormone production. So salt is basic. It’s very important. We need salt in the diet and that’s been another campaign that we’ve um carried out. I’m very happy to hear that because I always feel that food is undersulted. Well, there’s a reason you have a salt taste in your mouth. I always say the creator didn’t put that salt taste there to torture you, but because we need to put salt on our food. The chloride part of salt is what we make hydrochloric acid with in the stomach and we could not digest protein without salt and the sodium part is activates enzymes for carbohydrate digestion. So salt is essential for digestion. Well, and then there’s this whole other dimension that when you’re eating these, you know, ultrarocessed foods, which of course you’ve just made the case is uh, you know, are going to be high in these seed oils and other things that also changes how you um feel hunger. It changes a lot of things, right? It kind of deregulates you somehow. Well, there’s added, you know, the this industry is very good at addiction technology, making you want more. They have things that stimulate the taste buds. And one that hasn’t been studied at all is the fake salt that’s being put into the processed food. It’s called Simonix. It’s not labeled. All they have to do is call it an artificial flavor. It’s in everything, Yan. It’s in soft drinks. It’s in chips. It’s in Why is it fake salt? What does that mean? Well, it it stimulates a salt taste in your mouth, but it doesn’t give you the salt that you need. I see. And the obvious thing that’s going to happen is more obesity because your body really needs salt. And you people will just eat and eat and eat till they get the salt they need. So they have to eat twice as much to get the salt they need if they’re putting this artificial salt flavor in. So, I’m thinking back to uh uh there was this South Park episode a while back um where the kids call up the FD I think it’s the FDA and they’re like it’s an emergency. The food pyramid is uh is is inverted or I I forget exactly. It’s a very kind of a funny moment. But is that the case? Well, the food pyramid came out. It’s actually USDA that put this out. And um it put the carbohydrates at the base, white flour, and of course they give lip service to whole grains, but what happens is people eat a lot more white flour, which is kind of an empty food. It it gave Americans the green light to eat all the carbohydrates they want. And we do need carbs in our diet, but not to the extent that we’re eating them. And the idea was that this was going to curb disease, curb obesity. Well, obesity rates have tripled since they the food pyramid came out. And then at the very top, they have fats and oils. Well, I think the oils should be minimized. I I agree with that. But the thing is, the oils are hidden in the food. You don’t know they’re there. But, you know, when you put butter on your vegetables, you see the butter. So, it’s it’s very mandacious, this whole thing. Let’s uh let’s watch the let’s watch the clip. It’s dinner time on the east coast. In less than an hour, people are going to die. Sir, we’ve got a boy on the hotline who says he might know something. Who is this? My name isn’t important. What matters is that the answer is in the pyramid. The pyramid? That’s ancient stuff you’re talking about. Are you sure? Bring up the pyramid. [Music] What? What is it? What is it for? We built the pyramid a long time ago to illustrate how much people should eat of the four basic food groups. Sir, we abandoned the pyramid when Michelle Obama got involved. The pyramid doesn’t work. We’ve already tried it. It’s upside down. What? Sir, the pyramid is upside down. Turn the pyramid upside down. You can’t be serious. That would put butter and fat at the top of Flip the damn food pyramid. This is not FDA approved. It’s dinner time on the East Coast in 10 minutes. Now do it. [Music] Sir, we’ve got a match. Nutrition is stabilizing. We’ve got a well balanced vaccine. Sir, get the president on the phone. Tell him to have some steak with his. [Applause] So, uh, what’s your reaction? Well, I think it’s very funny and I love seeing the stick of butter on top of the food. The thing about fats, Yan, is that they they’re say they’re satisfying and you don’t get hungry as quickly when you eat a lot of fat. So, you end up eating less. And when you don’t get the fats, let’s just say you eat a pastry with sugar and white flour, uh, you’re going to get a big spike in blood sugar and then a precipitous drop. We call that the blood sugar roller coaster and then you’re ravenously hungry again and you have to go out and eat something else. Whereas if you eat a breakfast with um eggs and bacon and toast with lots of butter on it, you’re not going to be hungry till 1:00 in the afternoon. You don’t need to go to the vending machine. I read something in some of your materials about the politically correct nutrition. Nutrition. Yes. Yeah. So, well, that’s the food pyramid. It’s lots of carbs, a little bit of lean meat, skinless chicken breasts, which are disgusting, and no butter, you know, and if you drink milk, it’s got to be pasteurized skim milk. Why Why is that the politically correct Well, that’s what the USDA is pushing on us with the food pyramid. Except what they’re not telling you is there’s a lot of seed oil in there, but it’s hidden hidden in the food. So, what do you want to see happen with uh the USDA, the FDA? What is what what what are your hopes here? Uh well, Yan, I don’t think it’s going to come from the government. It’s got to be individual parents, individual families. The children today are not healthy. We all know this. One in two has some kind of disorder. We’re seeing uh autism in up to one in 10 children. and it just it can’t go on. So with all the possible educational materials we can give them with support from our chapter leaders, we’ve made raw milk available. We’ve taught people about taking cod liver oil, which is another big uh issue with us, a very important. And we’re there when people are ready. But wouldn’t you want uh let’s say the government messaging to change based on everything you told me? Well, of course I would, but I’m a realist. I don’t think it’s going to happen. Not in our lifetimes. Why? Why? Why do you say that? It’s just it’s there’s too much money writing on what we’ve got today. There’s too much money writing on seed oils. They can’t produce addictive empty junk food, processed food without the seed oils. You have a very a dark view of the whole food industry. In other words, oh yeah. Well, I don’t think there that’s where we should look. You need to get in the kitchen and prod it doesn’t mean you have to spend hours in the kitchen, but you need to get in the kitchen and learn how to produce healthy food for your family. you’re speaking to my own sort of my own inclinations that sort of always the bottom up approach is the one that’s going to going to change things. We’re definitely grassroots. Um it’s it’s got to come from the bottom. We have something called the healthy baby gallery. We publish photographs of healthy babies or parents have followed our suggestions. I guess when when it comes to this your crisis in fertility which of course is very real. It’s not just about diet. There’s environmental pollutants. There’s uh you know kind of medicines people are taking. There’s injectables you know and so on and so forth. All sorts of water. There’s fluoride in the water. There’s all sorts of things. I mean this is presumably what you know it seems like this current uh uh uh US administration is interested in figuring out some of these things. That’s all good. But you know when you’re wellnourished you can deal with a lot of these things. Oh um traditional people it’s kind of a myth that they lived in this pristine environment. They were breathing smoke all the time. They had smoke in their huts and their teepeees. They wanted to be around smoke because it kept the mosquitoes away. And smoke is um deadly pollutant. But they had no lung disease, no fertility problems, nothing. And that’s because the diets were extremely rich in vitamin A, which they got from the liver and the animal fats. And vitamin A is our number one protection against toxins. So Sally, this has been an absolutely fascinating conversation for me. Thanks for coming to visit us. I’m I’m excited to try the raw cheese that you brought. I’m a huge cheese fanatic in general. But uh a final thought as we finish. Yes. You know, I think there’s a lot of diets out there. There’s the pyramid diet, which people are realizing is not healthy. And there’s all these dietary schemes. There’s paleo and there’s keto and all this. But our our diet is is you don’t have to give anything up on our diet. It’s really delicious. Uh you can have naturally sweetened desserts. We have healthy soft drinks like kombucha. We have gravy and sauces. Um I I always like to stress it’s not renunciation. Mhm. It’s just different. It’s a different It means that you have to think about what you’re creating and what you’re putting in your mouth. Well, Sally Fallon, it’s such a pleasure to have had you on. Thank you so much. I’m happy to be here. Thank you all for joining Sally Fallon and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I’m your host, Ya Kell. [Music] Experience Politics

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