Apocalyptic Sex Cult EXPOSED

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how did you infiltrate a doomsday sex cult anybody could get pulled into this I get like how you go there and you’re like I don’t want to go back to the outside world The Fellowship of friends has been around since 1970 was when it was founded I had got an Airbnb and turns out like all the airbnbs in this town are run by members theyve taken over the entire town everybody there dresses different they kind of have their own sort of mannerisms and stuff it’s also known for meth labs and weed Farms the leader is Robert Earl Burton it’s based on the fourth way a lot of gurus kind of took this teaching and sort of made it their own the fourth way kind of teaches that there are three ways to kind of speech different types of higher Consciousness he said that he was kind of the only living teacher who kind of knew how to help people to achieve higher Consciousness and a lot of people they see the bad stuff after they’re in 2D but I started hearing rumors that there were these sex rituals happening large miners sex rituals somebody told me that for his 60th birthday they had a special event where he had sex with 60 men in one day I was like this is just mythologizing turns out it was it was wor wor than that any part of you and you have to be honest that was a little bit like what if some [ __ ] happens I visited them on and off for like 3 years and there were moments where I was like this is how I [Music] die Jennings hi thank you so much for being here man great to be here I really appreciate it okay I need you to explain something to me yeah how did you infiltrate a doomsday sex cult uh yeah I um um I went there so I I got the tip that there was a uh The Fellowship of friends was this group um that they had a they had a apocalypse prediction coming up okay and briefly sorry right before you jump into that could you just explain a little bit kind of who you are and what kind of work that you do yeah um I an investigative journalist I do podcast and documentaries now um I report on all sorts of weird things um the thing that people seem to enjoy the most is is uh reporting on like spiritual abuse and so-called Cults and uh spiritual organizations um so I’ve I’ve done a fair amount of like reporting on um alleged cult leaders or spiritual leaders uh I’m not even that into Cults um I just again I keep getting pulled in Cults have a way of pulling you into these you know um but yeah I so I started um a few years ago I was doing I was looking into this um uh Guru uh Teal Swan um and uh I was reporting at Gizmodo which you know is like doing like Tech and internet culture writing uh and I was getting um I was also reporting on like the dark corners of the internet and uh like conspiracy theories and right-wing extremism and this was like leading up to the 2016 election so I was reporting on just like like sanctioned suicide forum and political crazy [ __ ] like all kind of stuff and just YouTube like the algorithm knew I was like into some pretty weird [ __ ] I mean it was like kind of journalistic curiosity it was for work but I’m sure I like fit the online profile of somebody who like was maybe having suicidal thoughts and like into conspiracy theories so my YouTube recommendation this was before it kind of came out that like YouTube was like drawing people more into extremism but my YouTube recommendations were like insane and uh one of them was um Teal Swan who uh she has she was doing videos about like suicide and and um she was accused of kind of starting this online cult teal is really interesting I want to talk about her after but I see that I see how the pathway kind of opened up through uh through digital discourse so you cover teal who we’re going to talk about in a second but then you get this tip about this cult out west that has this apocalypse coming up right and that’s obviously pretty interesting yeah I thought when am I going to get the chance to uh witness a doomsday prediction uh or to to like be with a group and see them as they’re like leading up preparing for an apocalypse like you don’t get that opportunity every day right what’s up guys we’re going to take a break really quick because I’m coming on the road that’s right Pottstown PA Friday November 8th 2024 I’ll be at soul jeles you can come see me do one hour of standup comedy nothing more and nothing less it’s going to be an amazing time in and if you’re not near Pottstown don’t worry cuz I’m coming to Stanford Connecticut I’m going to New York comedy club that’s right they have a bunch of amazing clubs in the city and also an amazing one in Stamford Connecticut November 13th if you want to come hang out come hang with me say what’s up I’ll be talking to everybody after the show we’ll be doing an hour of Comedy guys standup comedy it’s my passion it’s what I love to do when I’m not inside this tent so come kick it with me bunch of crazy stories we’ll have a great time you can find the link at my Instagram get it in the story I’ll put it in the description I can’t wait to see you guys there let’s get back to the show so I reached out to him and I was like Hey I’ve done some reporting on like spirituality um also their thing is that like the fellowship of friends they believe that in order to achieve higher Consciousness you need to surround yourself with the finest things in life so um they they have an amazing Vineyard um like they they’re they they were pioneers of natural wine and their wine is amazing and they bring in Opera and ballet and um they have 44 angels that oversee them and it’s Shakespeare Rembrandt Bach Da Vinci sounds great sounds awesome yeah yeah um so I kind of told them like I’ve you know I worked at um wine spectator and Esquire and also have done like spirituality stuff so I kind of presented all that and I was like I’m curious about what you have going on um they invited me out uh and then they kind of looked me up and they’re like we’re not sure if we really want to bring you into this our compound uh but I um you know I told my I I’m still curious I’m coming out and I could talk to ex-members who you know have an actx to grind and are understandably upset um or you could kind of give me a window into the world and to see what what value this is bringing to the group and I I’m genuinely curious and I mean I was reading their their books that the group that the religion is based on and um so I I really wanted to understand what they’re about so I think they kind of resp to that we started with a a wine tour they have a Vineyard they do I don’t know about now after the podcast came out but they you could do um Vineyard uh Winery tours then now could you just explain to me what makes something a cult right because like you’re describing this group you hear that they have a doomsday prediction okay that sounds kind of culty but when people hear cult they think eight people in a basement with hoods and you know candles they think eyes wide shut so why is this a and you know what kind of behaviors from the outside before you actually got in where you tipped you off like oh this is something different about this is not like a membership club or something well I’m very careful with that word because it it it sounds like a judgment call if you call something a cult it feels like it’s you know it’s a loaded word right and I mean Colts didn’t historically weren’t really seen as a bad thing it wasn’t until like Jim Jones and um Charles Manson that it was a loaded word MH um but yeah a lot of religious religion start as Cults um and then it’s kind of like after it evolves into I mean there’s different definitions but um I you know I kind of say after the the leader dies and if it lives on past the leader then that’s kind of when it really becomes an established religion MH um but yeah with this one it’s been around since the The Fellowship of friends has been around since the 1970 was when it was founded okay so there’s been a lot of reporting early on that called it a cult I mean experts have called it that they’ve used their own kind of I mean I’m not a cult expert like there are people you know in Psychology whove worked like with deprogramming who um feel qualified to call it that but so it has been that term has been used a lot a lot of ex-members call it a cult so and I think an ex-member or current member once joked to me that they put the cult in culture um because they’re you know a high society group um so yeah I’m a little more comfortable with people calling it that but a lot of these newer groups um I’m you know a little more cautious about but yeah it’s it’s and especially when there’s they’ve had many doomsday predictions um so it’s been labeled a doomsday cult and they have a PR person like you can just email them like how does that work uh they have like a president who runs the business side who uh also like operates or oversees the the the winery um so yeah I reached out to that person and they were sort of hesitant but then eventually they were cool with it yeah and then you packed your bags what do you pack to go live with a cult uh I well there’s a lot of recording equipment cuz I want to do a start with a podcast um notebooks uh yeah I mean I had a a lot of because I want to like fit in just um so that people are comfortable and I you know it’s like any kind of culture that you’re sort of experiencing like you want to fit in and not like stand out and also be respectful um they all dress very nice so I you know I packed nicer clothes than I usually wear and prior to Landing there were you concerned did you tell anyone that you were going were they concerned for you yeah a lot of people were really worried um and I was I was worried but uh my curiosity gets the best of me and I was uh yeah I and also but yeah once I got there um there’s no cell service uh and it’s like tall trees and it felt very like uh Twin Peaks like I felt like Dale Cooper agent Cooper going into Twin Peaks and um uh it was very eerie and which area of California is this it’s uh kind of outside of Sacramento and kind of the Foothills okay yeah it’s um yeah it’s like two hours outside of Sacramento and had the organization we’ll call it prior to you going had any like shady disappearances of members or had any like misconduct that had been rumored yeah there had been reporting in like like the 90s um they that was kind of their Peak and there had been some ex-members who had claimed that the leader had sexually abused them when they were young or underage like 17 um so there’ been reporting but it’d been decades since anything had come out and um what I sort of gathered uh was that it was still very much in full swing and that it actually um gotten way more um uh sophisticated as far as like bringing in new members and um possible allegations of abuse crazy okay so you’re packing your bags you’re putting on your favorite shirts your your best Linens packing them in the bag flying to around Sacramento yeah and then you get picked up the airport use Uber to this cult yeah I know I just got a a um just got a rental and drove out there flew into uh San Francisco and drove out there and um I got I had gotten an Airbnb and I kind of gauged that the owner was uh of the home was a member and turns out like all the airbnbs in this town are run by members um because it’s really they’ve taken over the entire town um so the whole town it’s very that’s also kind of adds to this sort of David Lynch Vibe is everybody there dresses different and and acts kind of like they kind of have their own sort of mannerisms and stuff um it’s also known for um a lot of like meth labs and weed Farms so you kind of get the sense like there’s one there’s one um grocery store in the town and like one little restaurant and people are either like of the fellowship or they’re just kind of there because they’re Farmers or whatever and they can tell exactly who’s who second wearing like a ball gown or or they’re dressed up cuz it’s again it’s high society and it’s in out in the middle of nowhere um so people are in the sticks but dressed to the nines yeah I mean not not every day I mean but there you know there’s like a dress code so it’s like dressed very nice like slacks and and tucked in shirt bizarre yeah so you get there it feels very eerie you’re like how is this and there was no rip cord like there was no like oh if this goes bad like maybe you can run away and like drive off but yeah but I mean when I finally got into the comp I there was you know you have to go through a security guard and all that so I’d spent days in the compounds I didn’t sleep there cuz only the leader is really allowed to sleep there and a few members but um the whole town around it is other other members whove kind of like built their homes around the compound and the town is kind of basically like a larger extension of the compound but it’s it’s in the middle of nowhere virtually so if they wanted to disappear you it wouldn’t it wouldn’t be that hard there were moments during cuz I I I visited them on and off for like 3 years and there were moments where I was like this is how I die cuz I was like you know no self service it’s late at night somebody like takes a my my I would have like a tour guide sometimes or sometimes I’d be kind of off on my own because they would do Shakespeare performances or um so I’d be at a show and I’d kind of be walking to my car and uh but a lot of times I had a guide and he would go off and take a call and act real shady and I’m like this is this is how I get disappeared yeah okay so taking me through the Beats of like that first visit and then the subsequent visits after that yeah so the first visit um weirdly it lined up like the week of their apocalypse prediction so a lot of people were coming in there’s like I think probably like 500 people in the actual town but they also have centers all over the world so there was this huge influx of all these people from all over the world who were visiting for this special occasion because they believe that the leader said like the rest of the world is going to be destroyed and they will survive and they will kind of build the new civilization and that’s why they’re collecting all of what he sees as the best of civilization from Shakespeare and rembrand and all these teachings see so like he will be the leader of this kind of New World Order um based on his teachings uh just to to kind of expand on that idea can you tell me about the leader and what the idea and what the philosophy is that come kind of makes all these people stick together uh the leader is Robert Earl Burton um he’s he started it um in yeah 1970 uh now he’s pretty old um but yeah he teaches it’s based on this um it’s called fth for the fourth way it’s um it was created by this uh George gerief who was this kind of Russian Mystic philosopher in um around like I think 1910 or something he started it and he was um it became popular in the’ 60s and70s these teachings a lot of Colts in the’ 60s and70s like Raj porum from Wild weld country that he was they was kind of based on the Fourth Way um a lot of gurus kind of took this teaching and sort of made it their own and um so he pulled from that but the uh uh the fourth way kind of teaches that there are you know there there three ways to kind of reach different types of higher Consciousness or whatever like um yoga or whatever and then this is the fourth way the ultimate way to kind of become a conscious being and Angel or you know like have transcend you know and um so this Robert Burton the leader um he said that he was kind of the only living teacher who kind of knew how to help people become higher conscious like yeah to to achieve higher Consciousness um and one part of that was um being fully present uh like and you know you’re never more present than when you’re looking at beautiful art or listening to beautiful music or like having amazing wine and um I mean I think there’s there’s a truth to that you know like when I was on this compound and I was drinking amazing wine and watching um some performance under this beautiful night sky surrounded by I mean this compound is gorgeous like well now it’s kind of fallen into disrepair but like you know there’s an Amphitheater there’s like cam white camels and water buffalo and like he’s put they planted all these palm trees there it’s the middle of the Foothills but they they move all these palm trees he like there’s there’s statues and fountains um so when you’re there you’re kind of in this heightened experience and when you’re drinking the wine and watching and listening to music um you feel like these memories of that experience are very present in my mind um and I wasn’t like checking my phone or worrying about like what Donald Trump was doing or whatever like I just was totally checked out in present so I I get like how you go there and you’re like I don’t want to go back to the outside world um I mean there were many times where I was like if I don’t know if I didn’t know all the bad stuff going on I would and then they would invite me to join you know because I was kept visiting for three years and they kind of started to treat me like a student um so I totally get it like and I think that’s that’s something I tried to capture with the podcast is showing how like anybody could get pulled into this and then once you start seeing the bad things you’re like well maybe I’m just close-minded or maybe that’s just the price you pay for this wonderful thing um you know a lot of people they get they see the bad stuff after they’re they’re in too deep and I think I sort of get inoculated before you know I get my I get my vaccine by like reading all the and talking to the ex-members I know all the bad things so you don’t get seduced it’s in the same way yeah yeah yeah yeah wow so okay so this guy is a like very much influenced by mysticism very much I imagine like a high cultural member prior to starting this this actually no he uh he was raised in um uh kind of smalltown Arkansas and I think always wanted the Finer Things and sort of reinvented himself uh he um yeah he he moved to California and he was a teacher uh he was um I think this was unconfirmed but people say he was fired for like being too close to the kids I don’t know if like they were just uncomfortable because maybe he was he was gay or like I don’t know but he um he lost his job as a teacher he joined this other similar like Fourth Way group this is years before he started his fourth way religious organization but so he he his leader was this guy named Alex horn who was a horrific cult leader like he he would uh have these fight clubs he would make people beat the gay out of each other um he made one guy have sex with his own daughter um because it was like this Cult of like hyper masculinity and being like an alpha male yeah and uh Burton was was a member the Robert Burton was member of this of this group and um he had to uh get the gay beaten out of him and like finally got kicked out for um because he kept like I guess he had relations with another student and um so he got kicked out and then he was in this horrible car wreck and had all these um uh he had all these stitches in his head he had brain trauma I guess and after that he started getting the the uh started hearing messages from the Angels the 44 angels to guide him so I think you I I don’t know I don’t want to like we’re not psychologist yeah yeah but like you do have kind of this clean story of um he was in this I mean he was abused and like like he he was repressed um for you know like and shamed for being gay in Arkansas in the 50s or whatever it’s probably not the easiest thing right but then and this this cult I mean it was in California but it was still like um yeah I mean it was he was still shamed there and in like in a in a very abusive way um and then he had this you know this wreck and then right after that is when he kind of started creating his own group mhm um but then he he reinvented himself as this like refined gentleman and uh this cult was all about or this group uh was all about uh yeah like uh the Finer Things in life and he would go on these um he’d travel around the world looking at the artist the the the art made by the 44 angels and they would he would buy he was spending Millions on like Renaissance art paintings like his his they have this Mansion they built for him where he has um these sex rituals that are filled with all this amazing Renaissance Art and statues um and now I don’t want to jump ahead too far but how does he get the money early on to like start all this he was just really good at um just knowing who to recruit I think like getting people who um again because it’s like you know it’s 60s and 70s like everybody’s getting into kind of new religious things and like um a lot of them are like you have to go out to India or live in a tent or you know in a like right sell all your possessions live in poverty yeah and this is one where it’s like no you get to drink great wine you get to you know surround yourself with Fine Arts and Marvel at uh you know Raphael and have have a nice time you had a lot of um a lot of the prominent members were came from money or they were like people who yeah they they had like generational wealth and I think maybe were like looking for a purpose or something and this you know these groups kind of give you a sense of like belonging and just so wild okay so I understand a little bit about this guy now and I’m sure he had probably more uh like specific doctrinal teachings and ultimately they culminated in these doomsday predictions and now you are flying out there on the weekend I guess of one of these apocalypses yeah yeah so he’s this is I think the fourth or fifth one okay um that he’s predicted and uh yeah I just thought I was going to get to witness what it’s like when they’re kind of preparing for this world changing event okay so take me through it what happens you land there how many days until the Doomsday yeah I had I had been there before and I talked to ex-members CU that first time I got turned away I ended up talking to ex-members and then I came back for the Doomsday and that’s when they really let me in but yeah I had a few days before and I noticed I mean I started with the wine tour um because they were like we we’ll start with the wine tour and then we’ll see how you know it was kind of like a test I thought um and then I saw like different facilities I think I guess I sort of passed that test and then eventually they took me to uh the the cemetery and it was this beautiful like Zen area was very I don’t know it was like very well kept and I think I said something like um you know you can tell a lot about a community by the way they they treat their dead and um I guess my reverence or or something about it they they the guy who was there later said that was the moment I knew I could kind of we could trust you and bring you in oh how um and then I you know I asked all the right questions like again I I said I I I read the books of of the fourth way and I kind of understood the language and I dressed the part and um you know they could I really and if you listen to it I mean it’s a fairly balanced podcast um I think they responded to that and slowly let me in more and more um and I was very transparent I’m talking to x members too like there’s a lot of stuff like controversy that I’m going to go into but I I really you know I want you to help understand what’s going on so they responded to that um there was this I got invited to there was this sort of final Black Tie dinner and a toast like a final toast that the leader gave and and like everybody dressed up really nicely and I I my sort of tour guide for this uh he was kind of I think a bit of a a rebel and I think he kind of got off on um showing me a little behind the scenes oh really and so he took me we kind of snuck around around the um the the final like the black tie dinner what was his name uh I I in the podcast I call him Jack Jack he said I’ll I’ll I’ll give you I’ll show you how things really work just don’t use my name okay so Jack is showing you yeah he’s kind of an interesting character in the podcast because he’s um he uh yeah it’s I think he thought you know I’ll I think yeah he’s like kind of thought he could sort of he was sort of the publicity guy and if I if he showed me kind of a little more then I I don’t know uh that I I’d really see what I like and and and do a good I don’t know he also has access to some power in that moment you know what I mean like he is responsible and basically in charge of you for you know however many days yeah he can kind of show you things he can give you access to things you’re an outsider so I’m sure he gets a little bit of a a thrill from being able to take you around and I think it’s um everybody was kind of excited it’s not often there’s like uh you know they’ve um again they recruit now mostly from other countries they have centers all over and but it’s not often like kind of a a younger um American guy comes in and uh he’s taking interest in good faith and is being respectful and yeah yeah it’s kind of peering in because like the average age of the members if you had to estimate uh the so the the American members are mostly like the earliest members are like 60s 7s um but I know they’ve been recruiting for 50 years so it’s it’s um you know now there’s a lot of uh the younger ones are more like Latin American Eastern European um there’s a lot of like I don’t know it’s hard to say but uh yeah the the core group is kind of is is definitely getting older but there’s a lot of younger people too so it it would be really hard to say the average so you’re at this black TI dinner everyone’s sitting at these round taes I’m sure all having like fine these are fine dinners like the food is excellent uh it’s like I think that they’ve kind of gotten I don’t want to be rude but it’s been harder to sort of to sustain their quality of life because they have not been getting like in the in the golden days like in the 90s and like early 2000s I mean they were I talked to the former CFO he was like we were rolling in it like they were bringing in like there was always like a new Renaissance painting coming in um now it’s like they’re kind of they’re more on a budget um it’s like the quality’s gone down but people it’s kind it’s like the emperor has no clothes quality to it which is almost more bizarre it it feels very eerie because you’re in like it’s almost like Haunted Mansion you’re like this was nice and now it’s a little deric yeah like the vineyard is kind of dried up like it’s it’s kind of it it’s it’s sort of a yeah it’s um once great Empire kind of in a transition or Twilight period and and what does the leader look like like you’re in the room with him yeah and he’s he’s sitting there at a table I’m sure like paint that picture I kind of want to get your take on like I don’t know can you do he he’s um again in his prime he was like this refined gentleman he was uh he’s very tall and um poised and uh now he’s kind of like gaunt and sort of Skeletor Vibes um and he’s gotten more and more uh his aesthetic has gotten more explosively Roco like florals and it’s more like Liberace Vibes so he’s kind of like this gaunt old man who who yeah is like like his home and all the things have gotten like kind of more ostentatious and uh Jack Skellington and drag kind of yeah yeah that’s wild um so it is it’s it’s it’s all very eerie it’s a total Outsider yeah so you’re sitting there at this dinner Jack is I didn’t get to like actually sit in the dinner but I was like kind of there was a it was in his Manion and there’s this very ornate Garden so I was kind of like sneaking around the garden um I mean I was welcomed to be there and I had an escort um so I wasn’t like trespassing but you’re not a member yeah yeah but I didn’t I mean it was like you have to pay and everybody has to pay for all these dinners and every event every teaching event um so you had to pay I don’t know what the price was for this dinner but I hadn’t paid uh and I wasn’t I didn’t bring a tux like I I brought nicer clothes but like everybody there is like wearing you know it’s Black Tie um but then yeah that that was that was supposed to be the end of the world uh that dinner was supposed to be the end oh no at that that night so after it was like supposed to happen like two or like in the middle of the you know early morning so this was the final Black Tie dinner and then everybody kind of went home and there was this kind of like New Year’s excitement you know like what what’s what’s tomorrow going to bring and I think like my I was staying with members cuz I was in an Airbnb and we kind of stayed a plate drinking wine and talking and you know like um and then I I went to bed and uh it was supposed I set my alarm for whenever it was supposed to happen and I woke up and the world seemed to be the same around me I checked Twitter the world was still burning outside but no differently than it was before and did you get a feeling from the members as they all exited this event that they truly believed that this was going to like you know when like uh like 2012 like the Mayans PR to the end of the world I forget when May April something and uh or I think it was a summer solstice and there was a little sense for me at least you know I was like a early teenager I was like I don’t think the world’s going to end but maybe and so there was like kind of an anxious sort of buzz but I no one really believed the world was going to end but so did you feel like this energy was more on the side of like no it’s going down like say goodbye plan your [ __ ] or was it a little more in like oh this is sort of fun that was my I mean again that was my initial interest in seeing and going out there and seeing the sort of psychology um and what I I learned is there yeah there’s kind of a whole array of different views um cuz it’s important to know this was not their first rodeo they’ve been through a few predictions yeah do you remember when the most recent one was uh so this one that I I was there for 2018 before that was like I think there was a big one in the ’90s maybe something in between there okay um but yeah like every 10 years or so there’s a big prediction that he he gets a message from the angels and the first one everybody got super into it like people maxed out their credit cards like cut off their family like you know took out all their savings like bought stuff um bought a bunch of food and then it it didn’t happen and uh people were really upset and it really seem to affect the leader like he spent a lot of time alone like what have I done and he said at the time um the Angels did this to Humble me like I’m actually now I’m a more humble and greater leader you know this was like a learning experience and uh a lot of people left and then but the ones that stayed got even more into it and actually the this was studied in I think the 1940s this um Leon finger this this uh Psy psychology researcher he embedded into a doomsday cult and him and his research team and this is actually where the idea of cognitive dissonance came from H the so they he he wanted to see what would happen it was like this uh Colt in Chicago they they these like alien Angels were had predicted a great flood or the leader had gotten a message from the angels and it was me great flood that would kill all of humanity and then it didn’t happen and the leader said it was because we were so devoted you know the the gods rewarded us and wow that’s that’s when and from that he yeah he he realized like when somebody when you invest so much in something and uh it doesn’t come true you can either accept that you were totally duped and con or somebody kind of gives you a life ra or you know path out and like actually it’s this you were so good that we we we win and it’s easier after you’ve you know it’s like sunk cost fallacy or whatever you know poker logic like you you’ve and You’ given so much it’s easier to take that off ramp but then you’ve sort of rewired your brain into this new reality that was created by the leader so you’re kind of giving over more agency to the leader oh wow so even though the leader’s wrong people are still on the hook even more yeah and that’s that’s where he started this idea of dissonance which you know we see now with like politics and like conspiracy theories you’ve given up so much like you’ve cut off your family for qon or whatever and like any new thing you you’re just you you’ve you got Year all in you know like if you you you’ve invested you know you put you invested in something and whatever you gotta so uh it ends up like Cults that that lasts for decades and they have multiple predictions that don’t go wrong that don’t go right it’s kind of a calling mechanism like the the the kind of halfway people they they peel off but the True Believers become even more devoted so then you get like this like so so now bring come in I’m I’m there and these people the die hards have been there for and they’re like in deep they’ve given their whole lives this been distilled five times over and they found different ways of I asked a lot of different people like what do you think’s going to happen before and then after I was like what do you think happened and uh there were the younger members who were very excited they were like this is it like you notice there’s a lot of weird things going on in the universe like this is happening and then there were the older members that you could tell they were like well we think that you know I think Robert just does this as like a a tool to it’s a way of making us feel more present and don’t you feel more present right now we have he brought he was able to bring everybody together and we’re all excited and I was like yeah you’re right like maybe it is a way to wow um so you and it’s the same with any religion you have the die hards who think the world was created exactly like it’s described in the in Genesis and then some who think it’s a metaphor and they can all Worship in the same uh the same church or Temple or whatever you know like they so you find different ways to to make it work for you wow so these DieHard members are still like or like the old members are still like oh he’s still a genius yeah and he’s still calling us to our higher purpose you know that this fourth way we’re still being more present and so even if it it’s like a Kafka trap it’s like whichever way you cut it you’re still going down the path of being a more devoted follower yeah you know what I mean like yeah this didn’t work out but you know it’s because we were going to be humbled because I’m this is a test for you right wow that’s so clever because in my mind I’m like the first time a doomsday prediction doesn’t go right I’m out yeah yeah like I’m immediately like oh this is the dumbest thing ever duh but I can see how you’re already kind of sunk cost you already believe in the leader you now are creating and now maybe people are even giving you off-ramps yeah they’re giving you solutions to this distence that you feel and you go oh wow actually this guy is a genius yeah yeah wow so I can I can see how the energy split in the room yeah there’s some people like oh we get to be present again because this is what he does and the younger people are like all right this is happening yeah yeah yeah and then that and also the excitement of the younger people is kind of you’re like oh yeah I remember what it we felt like and hey maybe something is going to happen hey guys really quick did you know that on this day in history in 1582 Pope Gregory introduced the Gregorian calendar which most of the world still uses today or that in 1957 the Soviet Union launched Sputnik one the first artificial satellite into orbit this event Trigg the space race between the USA and the USSR I learned these facts pretty recently actually on the s’more Camp newsletter that’s right s’more Camp the inner sanctum for this kind of show we do a ton of research uh I have different researchers and friends that help me find information and not everything can make the episode either it’s like too crazy it’s too like weird or gory and it will get demonetized on YouTube or it’s just additional and it doesn’t always make it but it always makes it into the s’more Camp inner sanctum newsletter so if you were interested and expanding your mind learning new information and being the most interesting person into every room you step into check it out in the description or this QR code right here now let’s get back to the show any part of you and you have to be honest that was a little bit like what if some [ __ ] happens uh I um I mean yeah I was like I mean I’m gon to have the scoop of a lifetime if like I’m here on the safest place uh I at that point had talked to so many jaded x members who were like it’s he’s just he’s talking to people and it’s you know um I thought maybe with this one I’d heard that they had been stalking up on guns and kind of uh I was worried about some sort of like create at this point he’s getting older and maybe he’s going to create his own apocalyptic situation like a a Jim Jones or wake up I mean more like a yeah like a branch dividian thing yeah Heaven’s Gate or some [ __ ] cuz that was you know it’s like self-fulfilling prophecy create your own prediction yeah yeah but that it is the end of that world right you know and for all those members it is the end of the world so I was kind of but but yeah it was it was a big nothing and then the next day um there was sort of this uh they have these kind of like um on the compound they like a market like street fair type thing a bizaar and I went there and people were like there was a sense of disappointment but not you know it wasn’t the first time and someone was like yeah you know my kids couldn’t make it in so I guess I’m glad it happened cuz a lot of them are genuinely worried their kids who are not who’ve left the group or uh or never joined or whatever like are going to die off wow um so that’s the consolation well at least like the people I love who aren’t here are at least the world isn’t over you know what I mean wow but yeah there’s some disappointment and he I heard that the leader that Robert said um oh this was this was preparation for the real one the the big one which is uh so now we know what we we still need to figure out you know we weren’t really ready in time we didn’t get all of the solar panels and everything ready um and that one I last I heard us happening in 2025 oh wow so get ready crazy yeah okay so that was 2018 had you gone back another time so so I at this point the world didn’t end but I started getting hearing rumors that there were uh these sex rituals happening like large mini person sex rituals where the leader cuz again the leader I knew that the leader had uh been sued by having sex with young male members um and it kind of went away but I was starting to get the sense that it actually gotten a lot more and that he somebody told me the first time I heard that I was like no way uh somebody told me that for his 60th birthday he had a they had a special event where he had sex with 60 men in one day and I I was like this is just a mythologizing uh turns out it was it was worse than that um okay so he is what is the the leader’s name again Robert Robert so he up until you know sort of like your coverage but kind of like prior to 2018 it was acknowledged that he was just like an openly gay dude yeah I think well in the 90s after after so apparently he was doing this from the beginning okay um and then in the 90s after it became news like LA Times and Chronicle San Francis San Francisco Chronicle reported on it that he’ had with young male members he was they were like all right yeah the leader’s gay that’s fine and it’s actually he has holy sex with the members that’s that’s fine like it’s consensual and how young were the reports saying um the youngest was 17 um but like yeah men of their like 20s um that first major lawsuit that came out um this guy was said he was he was sexually abused by Robert he was a security guard guard for the Mansion or for Robert to and he was sexually abused and then he started asking around who else had this experience and he found out a lot of people did including his own son no who was 17 fu yeah so that’s when and then the guy was like we’re getting out and they did a lawsuit they follow the lawsuit um so then it all kind of came out uh and then you had all these people who were like yeah I had sex with Robert but it was a Holy Experience and you consensual yeah um and also at the time you know power dynamics understanding of that was what it was and a lot of these uh you know people like well it’s just a there there’s definitely like a a stigma around it being like a gay cult but people are just like well it’s it’s mostly white men having sex with each other like let’s just leave it be who cares um now what I was sort of able to uncover and what and and also a lot of ex-members are trying to bring attention to was the leader only targets young straight men um he once he gets them alone once the grooming happens all that he reveals to them he’s a he’s a goddess in a man’s body and kind of conveys that if they deny the goddess they will die and go to hell or something bad will happen so after months or years of grooming you know he targets them and um so whether why straight men I mean there’s different theories I don’t like I don’t know if it’s it’s a power thing um I don’t know if like I don’t know if this is his way of processing his like true gender identity because he once he’s alone he says that he’s a goddess I don’t know publicly he identifies as a man there’s a lot obviously a lot of like um you know he went through a very horrific um cult where they uh you know made him beat the gay out of each other so I don’t know what’s going on there but um but yeah so he kind of was able to get away with in the 90s they just settled that lawsuit and they were able to bring in keep bringing in more and more men and uh so he has I I I ended up so back to the Doomsday I uh I heard about this there was like still a lot of sex rituals happening I realized there was a much bigger story there and I ended up spending like much of the next three years uncovering basically this like alleged human trafficking operation where they bring in young men from all over the world from these centers in Eastern Europe and Latin America all over and through religious visas and they have these sex rituals with the leader tries to have sex with 100 men in one day um yeah so what the hell okay so you go in being like oh this is like a fun little doomsday cult let’s see what the vibe is and then you want realize after after the faction talking to ex-members that oh there’s a much more like Insidious criminal and kind of you know violent component to the whole thing wow okay so once you start going back do you write anything about this like after the apocalypse or failed apocalypse like you don’t publ anything no no I I knew that um yeah I wanted to do it as as a podcast or a documentary I went out there for that first trip and um I’d partnered with like you know this is inside B baseball but i’ partnered with this this uh company vuchi that kind of funds journalism um and uh have done a lot of produced a lot of great work they gave me sort of the initial funding to look into it we had the idea to do it as a podcast MH once I had the Dooms Day I’d recorded a lot of like great uh audio and interviews and I knew that there was more to the story like enough for a real inves investigative podcast we then um kind of shopped it around and I ended up partnering with partnering with Blum House yeah which is a very popular uh uh horror Studio yeah and they also do like documentaries um excuse me um so they seem I went to them and I was like this is when this podcast comes out you’re going to want to develop it into like a Horror Story cuz it’s sort of Stranger Than Fiction and real dark um and so yeah we we ended up partnering on it and then ended up uh partnering with Spotify um but yeah this is this a whole other side conversation about just like the nature of Journalism now is you kind of have to think like a sort of startup yeah preneur yeah um in order to because you know nobody reads anymore yeah you know so so yeah I didn’t um I I knew really to get attention I kind of needed to and also like I I had to I mean I needed the money to like legally vet this and fact check it um cuz I end up doing like had to get insurance in case it’s just a whole it’s it’s really especially like the the the fellowship has a long history of of suing people and and um hiring private investigators they got money out the Wu like you know a whole organization like I’m sure pulling money off members compared to just one journalist like yeah this is a this a a monstrous task so 2018 this fake apocalypse happens when do you actually go back back to now blow the roof off of the uh the sex trafficking component um so I kept coming back for uh like next three years um just doing different I was like because I wanted you know enough to make a full podcast and um and also like the like Co happened then and um uh it became hard just every you know everything changed um so the the podcast took longer to make than I expected um but uh yeah end up being 3 years later podcast finally came out that sort of shed light on all of this now did you do research while you were there about the sex rituals uh yeah I would talk to ex-members who participated or I there’s one in the podcast there’s one current member uh who was involved at the time who but these men talked about and corroborated all this of being a part of these these rituals now this seems risky right like it’s one thing to be like hey can I check out your Vineyard and look at your Mansion it’s completely other thing to be like hey can I look at like the dirty underworld that they know is [ __ ] up of what you guys are doing and so how do you get access to talking to members about the sex rituals I mean it it helped that like I just had kept coming back and building rapport with current and ex-members um uh and I think people were like well he’s keeps getting welcomed back and the president seems okay with him being here um and they knew I was talking to ex-members so everybody just I don’t know I just I don’t know how but everybody sort of got more comfortable with me over time from all all sides um because I think like people were like we don’t really know how it’s going to turn out but they they they thought I’d give them a fair Shake got and I think I did uh so yeah I think like that and in over yeah I just yeah I I eventually just sort of won everybody over and you know building Rapport and um wow I I think they didn’t realize how in dep I was going to go and like all like that I end up talking like the Chief Financial Officer who gave me about their numbers and yeah you know like he helped me realize like that it was like uh that there was you know an element of like fraud and that you know how how like they were really just doing everything to give the leader what he needed okay take me through all so how did these sex rituals work from talking to x members to talking to the survivors of the abuse to talking to current members that were abused and a part of the rituals MH one what makes it ritualistic like why is this not just an orgy and how was it sort of prepared and covered up like take me through all the details yeah uh that’s a so the leader called them love fests um they were kind of a they’re happening on like Valentine’s Day and it was kind of a celebration of love and whatever um that was the their thinking I call it a sex ritual because like I don’t know there there seems like it was there was like an idea of it was for some sort of spiritual reason like they had to sort of fuel him I I’ve heard different reasonings for how he justified it like he took their seed so that he like energized him to get the seed of his members his students so that’s the kind of ritualistic component but um I mean I had people tell me it was it was kind of like the DMV they were all just like waiting in line no waiting for it to you know and they just got called one day they didn’t really know what was happening but cuz he has he sort of has his group of men who he’ll travel with um as he’s like looking for art and stuff around the world and these are kind of his and they’ll live with him in the Mansion um they kind of they’re they’re they yeah they live in the different rooms of the Mansion he and he has the main bedroom that’s like covered with Renaissance art on the ceiling and all that um and this is sort of like his main herum yeah so we’ll have one group that has been called a Harum or Burton’s boys or different things and these are like terms in the group that I wouldn’t normally but that it’s like people know that that’s what’s happening got it and but for these special rituals they would kind of call in all the old people who had kind of been pulled out you know like who who were no longer in the in the that group um but you know so he would bring in all the ranks um so people who had kind of been done with that for years uh didn’t really know why they were getting the call but they knew Robert needed something so they all arrived and they got an email like it was a secretary that called him like do you know he has like um a couple men who help uh that are closest to him that uh he always has like a secretary who I think helps him with teachings and keep you know and handles his phone and all that so but then there’s also like a couple men and you there’s like a whole hierarchy around him and there’s men who um who help kind of organize these things and now are the men in the Inner Circle are they emotional companions or are they purely like sexual I think there’s a lot of emot I mean I don’t I I didn’t get you know I talking to ex ex-members I think there was like an emotional like they they really felt like he was their sort of spiritual dad and he was their teacher like one guy said you know was like it was like my dad my my spiritual teacher and um all kind of wrapped up in one he’s also sort of their landlord you know he’s their employer cuz they’re all getting money from you know they they have a lot of them have gotten religious feces to become like ministers you know they’re getting a paycheck so it’s like their life is sort of dependent on him and they left their family in Ecuador or Argentina and they came here to specifically live with and around these people yeah so that’s a component of of the newer people is like they they’re living in a country where they don’t really speak the language and they don’t understand the immigration system and they’re completely dependent on this isolated community so even if they want to leave it would be very difficult um no I don’t know if you can speculate on this but like of these like the Inner Circle the boys as you said are they openly gay are they are they presenting with sort of like no me he only want again he only targets he only wants straight men only yeah I he it’s actually the group I’ve heard is very homophobic um the leader teaches that it’s cosmically wrong for men to be with men women to be with women uh this was going back to the like the 70s like I I spoke to one woman who she said she joined with her girlfriend and the leader said you know this is cosmically wrong you can’t um yeah so that actually makes it harder to speak up because it’s like baked into the the sort of Dogma that like being with a man is spiritually wrong so they’re sort of I think a lot of people leaving kind of have homophobic Tendencies or it’s just sort of indoctrinated that that’s wrong so male and male sexual abuse is already very stigmatized and hard to speak out about I mean it’s a problem you face with the in the Catholic church and and Boy Scouts and um but also where it’s like this group where it’s insane with Catholicism stuff where you say that that’s wrong so it’s harder to speak out about it and then also just you know feeling like it makes you less of a man or whatever you know these these feelings that are ingrained in US socially wow um so yeah uh a lot of these men so and I had i’ I’ve heard from numerous men who who said yeah the the gay men would kind of joke that or they would say like I I I I wish that I could have sex with my leader but he’s not interested in me um yeah so these are all straight men but he would dress them very flamboyantly and dress like they all kind of looked like his his sort of again floral Roco style sort of dressed them all and would buy them gifts um bizarre yeah so the night of This Love Fest quote unquote which I’m trying to figure that out like does he like is is he calling it because it is a Love Fest it’s not like oh we’re doing the you know seed ceremony to get power like he would I don’t know who called it Love Fest but everybody knows of them as love fests cuz I could see him basically justifying it as saying like what we’re doing isn’t sex what we’re doing is an energy ritual and obviously it is he’s using it to as power for sex but to say oh this is an energy ritual and what you’re doing isn’t isn’t gay it is uh you know this transfer of energy in order to help me Ascend in my Consciousness but it’s if you’re calling it a love ritual or love Festival like it seems like a pretty clear indication that there’s like a sort of uh fial kind of relationship happening yeah it’s uh again people thought it was they viewed it as a sort of holy sex you know sex with a teacher was like a way of being so one of the base teachings like I said earlier is like being present and people thought oh I’m just going to be fully present when I’m having this holy sex with my teacher and the first time they’ happened you know it was very like they felt very present because yeah they’ being abused yeah um so that’s how they you know wow so now is the is the goddess component where he’s sort of representing as this goddess is that a part of the Love Fest to your knowledge no I think it was just I heard different things he would tell people to make them more comfortable and that was the interesting thing it’s like talking to different uh survivors he kind of told them different things that they said like he knew how to get to me um whatever your thing was yeah when it was like one guy he said uh he was like I and this is in the podcast he was like I was kind of a pirate I was kind of a rebel and um I was like first time I heard that he had sex with this his students I was like no way man like that’s not my thing like there that’ll never happen but he got chosen to travel with Robert and that was very special you know you knew it was like a great honor so you’re all of a sudden you’re you grew up in rural uh Ukraine or whatever and now you’re traveling and you’re dressed up really nice yeah you get this money to go these amazing dinners wow um that’s great and then you’re doing that for months or years and you know there’s certain boys men in the group that have special treatment and they kind of go into his room at night and you think there’s sex but you’re like they don’t seem too upset like what what’s going on in there maybe maybe holy sex is like maybe there’s not even a penetration maybe it’s just it’s this you know like what am I missing out on is this is all how he described to me and it’s it’s in the podcast and I feel I hate like quoting these guys but yeah um but he he was like this this one guy was like I eventually I was like for year for months or years he’s like no way I’ll do that and then all of a sudden he’s like how come he doesn’t he isn’t choosing me like what what what’s wrong with me like why am I am I spiritually deficient in some way um and now years later he’s like you know Robert knew he knew like the moment that I was sort of at my weakest and most and that was like the time that he we were like leaving a museum and he took me arm in- arm cuz he had this way of being like grandfatherly and and he asked him you know will you I was thinking maybe you could um spend the night with me tonight and you know he was like it’s here it is it’s come and uh so they they got in bed and uh sometimes there was like massaging or something um but they just went to sleep and he was like oh maybe that was it uh and maybe this is cuz I he felt so present he was like maybe this is it and then but then he said he he woke up and um the leader was going down on him and uh and that’s when he was like oh this this is what it is um but it would but yeah it was like that it was like he he it was a compelling interview and he kind of explain that sort of process of how it can happen over years wow um where yeah you feel um in efficient if you’re or deficient in some way if you don’t get abused wow yeah I mean it makes complete sense and maybe there’s a an like an internalized misogyny in me where like if you had told me this about a woman I’d be like oh yeah this makes complete sense right there’s a woman in a workplace she wants to be an actress like all of these events that predicate like the me too movement right you have this power dynamic or you know imagine there’s some Ukrainian mod and she meets a rich guy and then he wants to do things to her that she doesn’t want to do but she does it anyway because da this is a story I feel like we’ve heard a lot and has sort of been uh kind of like imprinted on at least me as like an American I’m familiar with this type of rhetoric but I’ve never really heard it about men yeah but once you sort of lay out the steps where it’s like oh yeah you’re like a poor dude from Ukraine or a poor guy from Vietnam or whatever and now you’re in this situation where all of a sudden you’ve been given the world and you have access and your life is changing and all you have to do is just you know hang out with guy and then you have to share a bed with this guy and years are going by and he’s [ __ ] with your brain the whole time and you’re sort of getting like inoculated into the group yeah and then it just happens right it makes complete sense yeah um wow yeah and uh it wasn’t until um I think coverage of the me too movement where a lot of these men started even have like the psychological vocabulary to understand what happened to them um I mean talking to them for some of them was the first time they really opened up or even processed what uh had happened and they were like you know they say things like at the time I didn’t think it was because he didn’t have a gun to my head but he convinced me over years that if I said no that I would um die and go to hell or something terrible would happen to my family or whatever so it was like he had this sort of cosmic gun yeah um but yeah I mean now they realized there was a powerbalance and you it’s hard to it’s you can’t really consent on when when somebody is your landlord your boss your God uh the reason you came to America you know like damn so now that’s sort of like the Inner Circle yeah the Love Fest you get a guy that gives you a call and says hey Robert needs you to show up here at this time yeah it was in the night I assume yeah yeah I don’t I don’t know I think it was this oh no this was a 24-hour Love Fest it would start 9:00 a.m. till 9:00 p.m. or something like that now were these men married yeah a lot of them children yeah so this is a man that has a a wife and kids they’re living in a house near the community yeah or near the compound and he gets a call and says hey Robert needs you to show up yeah and these men might be 35 40 years old these are not like boys that are 18 I mean he has again the the current the the people who traving traveling with him at the time are uh usually younger but then for these love fests they need to call in all the you know past people of that inner circle um and yeah then there you know they like with that main case in the 90s it was a guy who was abused and his son was abused so sometimes it’s like kids who were born in the fellowship that’s the new so of course and they’re groomed I’m sure from day one which I want to I want to ask about but so then these guys show up to the compound yeah and they are waiting outside do they have to dress a certain way is it all at the same time like simultaneously or is it one by one um I I don’t know if they I think they probably just dressed normally cuz they didn’t know what was happening I mean I think if you know you’re doing something special for Robert you’re probably going to dress up a little nicer M but yeah they apparently like one guy described it as waiting in line of the DMV um he he usually he’ll he does like I think it’ll be five at a time um and uh so it’s kind of like these group where I mean he um he’s always the receiver so you know he people he he I think it’s like oral and and anal and um and that’s there’s like biting and and yeah it’s like um but it’s like this group sex and apparently like people like are kind of um yeah coming in and yeah and he’s the recipient of it yeah that’s yeah yeah bizarre CU he’s like I I think like receiving the energy of the seed is there a disease element like like are they wearing protection I’ve heard of of outbreaks of different things really um yeah I that I didn’t I I tried not to get I know you kind of can’t help but like think about the the semantics and the questions like how does it even work I try not to like what I’m getting survivors to open up about this like there were certain things that I’m trying to I need to corroborate like what did he say because a lot it was interesting that he said the same thing to different people like the the goddess in a man’s body and like that finding these patterns help me helps me corroborate but there’s a certain point when it’s just kind of like you you don’t need to ask a Survivor for like certain details of their abuse and so there are some gray areas and and I’m I don’t want to be pressed to fill in those gaps but um but yeah you also can’t help because it it just sounds like yeah this um dionan orgy like it’s very dark like you you want to you can’t help but picture it um bizarre but yeah it was M it was um like five six at a time it was like group and then they’d kind of be done and he would they’d come out and in the podcast the guy says he both people said that he probably got to like there there’s two men that I that are in the podcast talking about it and they said he got to like um 70 before he was just so worn out um he just like physically couldn’t keep doing it but what the [ __ ] and this has been going on for years and is still currently going on to your knowledge I so yeah in the beginning it was kind of like one I talked to early members who said you know he would kind of they’ get a tap on the middle of the night and they’d have to go in and this uncomfortable experience would happen and then he started and then in the 90s when it came out and they had to for that major lawsuit and they had to set they settled but then that was it so he I think then he like they really he was able to keep they this like sort of addiction kept growing um and then they had to like bring in not just for his sexual desires but also like I mean they built this in this amazing huge Vineyard they carved it out of a mountain it’s like this arist Vineyard um I mean it was like slave labor you know nobody’s getting paid um and then for the the harvest like everybody would come from around the world to like pick grapes and that’s why they were able to have this amazing robust Vineyard um but like they have these ornate Gardens and everything you need you need cheap or slave labor so they that’s why they’re bringing in all these people from um uh other countries I mean this is just this is blowing my mind what’s up guys we’re going to take a break really quick because I need to tell you how to get your health in control okay with this thing right here it’s called whoop I love it I didn’t think I was going to be a big whoop guy I tried it out like a year ago and I haven’t taken it off since I got a bunch of different bands and I really enjoy it all right right now I’m doing sober October I’m off the booze I’m off the K off the fent everything I just caffeine and nicotine that’s all I’ve been up to but there’s nothing wrong with that you know what I mean it’s no no alcohol because alcohol is the thing that messes your sleep up the most and caffeine after 2: p.m. that’s just my personal thing I I’ll be honest I have a kid I should not be getting this much sleep but because I’m doing sober October I’ve been sleeping unbelievably well last night I got 81% recovery with a newborn night before that 74% recovery with a newborn night before that 20% whatever all right all I’m saying is if you’re interested in getting control of your health you’re going to go to join. whoop.com Camp all right CM that’s where you’re going to find me I’m actually going to try to make a community I don’t know if this is even possible I’m saying this without even really knowing the details I’m going to make a community so if you are listener to this program and you get a whoop or you already have a whoop you can join me in our community we can track our sleep together we’re basically sleeping together if you want to think about it that way all right every night you and I snuggled up cozy next to the campfire so listeners of this show you’re going to get one month free when you join with the promo code Camp check it out join. whoop.com camp let’s get back to the show so after you put this out yeah and you sort of expose what’s going on speaking with ex-members talking to people that are even currently involved is there a police investigation like is this technically non-consensual like this is such a bizarre gray area obviously these men are manipulated but they’re also they are engaging in it in a very active way yeah so I’m curious like what the law kind of has to say about that yeah um it’s you know there were people who tried to blow the whistle in the past and nobody ever really took it seriously um it’s really hard to because you know we have great um First Amendment rights in this country you know freedom of press but also like freedom of religion I mean it was a religious organization and these were sort of part of that um ice and the so yeah uh there was a huge investigation for seven years uh it was ice and the DEA joined for a bit because there was kind of like some of the members were growing weed and I think that was kind of their way to like to like legitimately like poke around yeah um I did did a freedom of information request they got this like full report um they raided the compound uh this was like 2007 it shows that they asked um members who’d gotten religious visas uh what was going on and and they determined they were being paid very low wages it seems like they didn’t ask them anything about sex um or maybe I mean it seems like they all kind of knew what to say um the members knew what to say to not get in trouble but um yeah ultimately they weren’t able to prove that there was I mean they they’ gotten a tip about human trafficking so they they went looking for sex trafficking and ultimately determined that there was um immigrants there for low wages non-citizens there for low wages having to perform sexual acts on the leader they didn’t go into that nothing in the report really looked into that how do you go for sex traffing and not ask about the sex part in the report they were saying that we we talked x-member I don’t I don’t know um it was really hard to find out you know to get much with that so I know that that they’ve been on the radar of you know Federal you know the government for a long time um after this so in after the podcast came out uh last year um a law firm who they they took on um some of the Catholic Church Arch dases and Boy Scouts and other and other organizations they they kind of one of the things they specialize is like systemic abuse within institutions and they recently filed a a pretty major lawsuit against the fellowship and so there’s a group of ex-members um who allege human trafficking and like the it’s a lot of the stuff that’s was first reported in in my podcast and my reporting is in this lawsuit um so I think you know maybe that that kind of it came out I can’t say like you know is but but it came out like it it it was after the podcast and um it’s a lot of the allegations in there um and yeah so a group of men are finally speaking out and taking on the fellowship wow now I just want to kind of be clear the abuse is typically happening to of AG men this is not necessarily pedophilic after the after that first lawsuit in the 90s um where it was a minor they changed it where you had to be um 18 to be a member and my thinking is maybe they thought if we put up kind of some sort of guard rails for him it’ll keep us out of legal trouble yeah but but you know thinking about abuse and power dynamics was very different than um uh yeah so but and I have heard there are younger members and I I don’t know but um uh yeah these are uh mostly men in their 20s and 30s got it now and did you ever talk to the leader I got close I kept asking you know I and I think I heard different things I think like they didn’t want me I I got the sense they were kind of worried that he would embarrass himself or like embarrass the group or you know people kept telling me you’re you’re his type like be careful um members said this uh ex-members would say that yeah um there was a very eerie moment where uh I was at this sort of jazz event uh it was like in the garden um it was before some sort of I think a Shakespeare performance or something [Music] uh and there’s just like outside his Mansion there’s this big Garden that modeled after The Gardens of ver versailes and there’s fountains and statues and it’s like a weird like Allison Wonderland type feeling um but we were next to this Fountain and there was like Jazz playing and champagne and or derves and we’re all sitting around and um this was when I was like pretty deep in the sauce you know cuz like people were sort of Love bombing me you know like I’m sitting at this intimate all these little dinners and like uh or these these um tables and and they’re laughing at everything I say and they’re like oh you’re like you’re like one of the students and you know I’m I’m dressed up too um and there’s all these weird rules like you you can’t chew while other people are talking you have to like take a bite and put your um your uh utensils to the side and so it’s kind of like your you kind of start to feel like a robot you know because you’re you’re not eating much and you’re not just you’re thinking more about the things so I was really feeling the kind of that whatever the the drug the like I was I was feeling very present as they would have said and then all of a sudden the leader arrives and he has this like a Entourage of young men that are dressed well and they also s this table next to me and uh I this guy sitting next to him comes up to me and he’s holding a picture on his phone and it’s this black and white picture and he’s like you look just like I did when I was your age can I take a picture of you so he takes a picture of me uh and then he goes back to Robert and my my guest or my my escort Jack was like I think that’s that’s Robert’s Admiral and he’s kind of he’s probably doing Intel for Robert so I don’t know if that was like who’s this stranger on my compound or if he was interested but it was a very eerie thing to know that the leader had clocked me and was asking about me and like wanted a photo of me bizarre yeah was there ever a moment where you felt he was courting you or wanted you to somehow be involved that was the closest that um I mean again the president every time I asked people were like oh he’s no longer capable of communicating doing that kind like that kind of an interview like so he if you if you listen to his so people leak to me his teaching like he has these meetings um where he’s um talking for hours uh and it’s I I had recordings from early days that kind of made sense and he’s talking about the angels and I’m like yeah I get it like Shakespeare maybe had some sort of you know there’s a story there’s something cogent yeah and um over time it’s gotten more like he’s gotten more into like numerology and he’s like counting looking the paintings and counting the numbers and like it’s um it it it it if you’re an outsider it kind of sounds like gibberish um I don’t know if it’s cognitive decline or if he just no nobody really questions what he says so he just kind of rambles I don’t know what’s going on but they see it as like he’s sort of so on a higher level that he’s no longer like he’s just a higher conscious he’s not able to to to dumb it down enough for us earthlings right so they were like it would be impossible for him do an interview and I agree like it would probably he’s he’s a total Outsider asking questions is not something he’s really encountered in a long time yeah he’s been in this bubble so I agree an interview would probably not make sense but but I think that was their excuse cuz they they sort of knew not look good to the out cuz I think everybody thought cuz any times there is some sort of coverage they sell a lot of wine cuz the wine is great like I hate to give them PR but like it’s really good wine they were they when I was reporting on this I heard that the New Yorker given them um the president was like I just got a call from The New Yorker fact Checker the president runs the business side in the vineyard and I was like [ __ ] I’m getting scooped like this is a New Yorker like they you know scooped means scooped means like somebody else has beat me to the story like some Yorkers this is they had just done like you know I mean they you know they they exposed it’s the New Yorker like they and their factchecking is like famous for like being very thorough and um but yeah I mean they they they Expos like Weinstein and like I was like [ __ ] they’re they’re coming for this sex cult uh and um turns out it was a it was a it was a story about um their it was a story about natural wine and how they were kind of pioneers of it cuz are they’re um which I love natural wi yeah give it a shot it’s good you know uh what I’ll say is uh so the the guy their their wine master or their wine maker who he was it was the time when like um wine was being kind of industrialized a lot of chemicals and in California it was like the California wine boom and they were like because I think the they didn’t want to do that to their and they had against slave labor so they could just kind of really so um and you know the land was sacred and so they they went they just did it all natural and um that wine maker uh kind of became an icon because he was doing it early on and now he has left and he’s making his own wine Gideon Bean stuck uh he you can have his wine that is separ that is not funding the fellowship yeah um but his wine the wine that he made at uh at at the the fellowship and their their their Vineyard is their Winer is called Renaissance um it’s it’s kind of scene is very uh yeah it’s very well it was very celebrated at the time yeah I don’t know I wouldn’t want to try like the The Love Fest sh you know what I mean like that feels I don’t know what’s in there um yeah so I oh what I was getting at is like they uh they I think they thought you know the we’re going to if it’s good or bad it won’t hurt us we’ve been through everything we might at least sell some wine um and I so I think they kind of wanted to keep me with within some sort of boundaries and by talking to him it would have opened up too much yeah and if and if I made it look bad it like whoever had made the decision to let me talk to him would probably get in trouble or you know and then just briefly the finances how did the money work yeah they um so everybody has to give uh 10% you know a tithing um so that’s at the very least and a lot of people you know they’re making really good money it was like uh I think there was a somebody in the tutor family was involved at one point there was like a like the English aristocracy yeah there was a lot yeah um there was uh yeah a lot of people who came from generational wealth had a lot of money or good jobs um Robert really wanted people to be doctors and lawyers and artists and you know there so they’re getting in lot of money from that also everything cost like all these dinners um to get a photograph with Robert cost like 100 bucks at every event so they’re always they’re like really bleeding you everything and um he the more moneyy you get the more favorit treatment uh even like he only shows up to certain funerals they have like a funeral on the compound and they get buried in the cemetery um I sort of got the sense he he shows up if you if you donate all your money to him after you die no way or if you if you give money for some building that ends up maybe not actually going to the building so even in death it’s kind of this sign that like you have to pay to play um so I I imagine if you’re a funeral and Robert’s not there and you know that person didn’t have any money left over because they spin it all on doomsdays or whatever um yeah that that’s a you know that’s a sign and correct me from wrong but these members or a number of them had basically infiltrated Google so yeah this came out um I after the podcast came out uh I got a a lawyer reached out that was like um wanted to to talk or maybe may be sort of an expert witness or something that said um they had kind of infiltrated this company and there was some sort of discrimination happening within um that didn’t surprise me I’d heard about that happening before like they’d done another company and like I knew that they had involved in like early uh tech companies because they were you know started in San Francisco in the 70s um but I was surprised when I found out it was it was Google um so how does a cult infiltrate Google so it a member uh a guy had been there forever he uh has been in the group forever he got a job there because again a lot of them are like early tech people he just got a good job in in one business unit the um uh I think they do like videos for marketing team or something um so it’s a you know Google’s very big it was like one business unit that he got there and he was only hiring other allegedly this is what what came out from a whistleblower they were kind of only there was preferential hiring for other for only other members um they would have events where they were hiring Fellowship um contractors and like ordering Fellowship wine um and this guy Uh Kevin Lloyd he uh he worked at Google the time and he started noticing like all these people come from the same place and they all dress the same like what’s going going on um and he finally put it together and he was very sick like knowing this that he was working with all these people who were um a part of something that seemed to be very corrupt uh and so he told his Superior and uh says he was fired after that so he was Superior a part of it uh I allegedly I no I think he just was kind of like don’t don’t mess with it or maybe that that guy’s Superior was or something um he’s also like what you’re asking me to fire the whole department like we have 15 guys that are here yeah yeah like they had a good thing going they’re doing a great job and I don’t give a [ __ ] who they’re banging on the side like but now you’re going to ruin our whole thing yeah I don’t I yeah I don’t know what happened and I’m like that’s a a lawsuit I’m not because it was after my reporting you know so I like I followed it like I I spoke to the New York Times because it end up coming out in the New York Times um so I was like quoting that I was sort of I was tracking it but I can’t speak as like I have to be more cautious cuz um I mean I’m afraid of uh religious groups me but I’m even more afraid of a big Tech Corporation completely reasonable yeah yeah and so now since you published the story the podcast came out it got you know hundreds of thousands of people are watching this consuming and and learning about this whole thing it seems like there’s pretty bad press for this organization were there ever any points where you felt your life was in danger or you felt that the organization was coming for you no they I think they in the past when stuff has come out they were very like I they they would sue people who spoke out and I I talked to ex-members who said like they would hire a private investigator to threaten them and follow them um now I think they just kind of bury their head in the sand I think they’re they’re they don’t have the war chest that they used to um and uh the president told me he said I if I’d been involved back then I wouldn’t have sued the LA Times cuz you know the news organizations have such you know freedom of the press is so strong in this country it’s kind of pointless so I think that they’re just like they’ve learned it’s just better to to not yeah to not give attention to it um that’s interesting so so yeah I that one I I’ve been it’s it’s it for me it’s been more groups that are very online and like younger like this this place they’ve they they’re pretty isolated um they’re they got their own thing going um it’s the groups that are online that that really attack me and threaten me and or like file lawsuit or whatever interesting yeah I guess this group has been around the block so much that they’re like look article comes out it doesn’t affect our ability to recruit it doesn’t you know it doesn’t hurt us in any way negatively no one’s getting arrested and it’s helping us sell wine you know like even at worst like it’s not going to hurt our wine sales yeah I mean I I I I push back on that because I don’t I hope I’m not like I have no objec I really you know my my when I when I go into a I just want people to know what’s going on and especially if there’s like abuse or whatever like I I I just want to shed light on things um you talked to a lot of people who talk about being hurt and I think there you can’t help but be a little hopeful for what happens um well you did such a thorough job that now there’s an open lawsuit so this what I was going to say like I that could actually change you know the abuse that’s happened yeah and I and I know that um so there’s somebody who ran a a Blog uh it was like a bunch of ex-members who would post things um and uh a lot of it’s like years of great citizen journalism that I I pulled from from you know and I would talk to these people and verify it and stuff but there’s like ex-members who’ve been posting on these blogs for years that did been trying to expose it um so I was really standing on the solders of of giants you know before them but uh anyway that the person who runs that blog uh he I also want to note that that um that blog went down uh like it was like a Google hosted blog and it went down after um after all the Google stuff came out weird uh so you know add that to your conspiracy theory but uh he would show me who was going like the the site visits um and a lot more government and legal agencies were looking checking the site after the podcast came out like I mean we’re we’re talking so I I do I think there was more people looking into it and yes this lawsuit so um I all that to say like I I think more attention came than just like selling I don’t think that they just I think they’re uh yeah they got more scrutiny and I didn’t just tell them help them sell wine that’s a fair that’s a fair Counterpoint yeah I guess when the coverage is like oh look at this mystical bizarre high class cult or high class organization that probably doesn’t do much but when there’s a very much like a thorough in-depth investigation then there’s a real potential for change so that’s a fair correction there had been an article a few years before this in San Francisco Chronicle that really went into the wine and kind of glossed over debut stuff um and The New Yorker thing kind of there was a parenthetical that said it had been there had been some abuse so I think oh so they acknowledged it the New York yeah I mean they did they were like oh in the 90s there was um uh some some And the reporter did this she’s she’s an amazing crime like True Crime and like a she’s she’s one of my icons as far as journalist I think she just got assigned a um do this natural wine thing natural wine thing and she wanted to work in this crazy cult thing um so it is not like it is not a slight on the New Yorker I was just like really worried that it was going to be something much wor something much more in depth on the sex abuse that I get scooped what’s up guys we’re going to take a break really quick because you need a clean and healthy alternative to give you energy throughout the day if you’re like me you’ve been using a bunch of different type of stimulants and supplements to try to get yourself through the day but I got to tell you guys about Ketone IQ all right this is of the most natural and cleanest ways to get into a flow state to get that Runners high in a completely pure and natural way that’s why I love Ketone I’m telling you this is the best thing that gets me in between meals it’s if I’m craving a 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receive a free six pack of Ketone IQ when you go to Ketone decom Camp gagum that’s right that is Ketone ke t o ne.com campg check it out right now take control of your health get a cleaner alternative to give you energy throughout the day put your body and ketosis if that’s what you’re trying to do now let’s get back to the show can you explain to me who Teal Swan is yeah that she’s kind of how I got on this whole chy of reporting on more kind of spiritual phenomena um she is a spiritual teacher uh she’s also kind of like she was one of the early sort of spiritual teachers to become more of like an influencer a YouTuber Instagram I mean now that’s like incredibly common I mean you can’t throw a rock in in Austin without like hitting you know 20 of these but uh she was kind of a Pioneer I mean using um uh you know YouTube and and Instagram and now she’s sort of blowing up on Tik Tok now she is well yeah I mean with I mean she she’s evolved but when I first started reporting on her she was she was new to that and uh I was yeah Gizmodo kind of writing about more internet culture stuff and I thought she would be kind of an interesting person to to start reporting on um to see how she was kind of building this new brand of spirituality online um and she was controversial like uh she was uh people were accusing her of pushing people to kill themselves um and she had a lot of YouTube videos about suicide and um self harm and darker topics so I was intrigued um and started reporting on her but then there was just so much nuance and messiness to this story we thought like a an investigative podcast would really be the best way to kind of dive into some of these topics M so we did it as a podcast um I end up spending a year and I went out to her Healing Center in Costa Rica spent a lot of time with her um and then after that podcast came out it was um developed into a show on Hulu free form called The Deep ends um when we ended up filming her for three years uh or this other like this production company and director they kind of took it a whole different they they gave it a whole different um sort of Direction and spent all this time with her um but after that is when I sort of started getting just flooded with tips like my DMs are just like a garbage fire of spiritual trauma like where people are constantly um I mean it’s a blessing and a curse like as a as a journalist it’s good to have constant tips of things to look into but yeah I never know someone’s just dumping on you like hey I was abused by this person you’re like what is this real should I call the police like this is insane I couldn’t imagine yeah so this woman yeah if I was someone that got involved in her organization or was sort of uh lured into her healing practices what would be the steps that I would have fallen into yeah well that’s the way I got I got interest I got sort of pulled into her was like I said earlier at the time I was reporting on kind of dark things and and YouTube was recommending these videos about suicide and stuff and I was in she in them she looks deep in the screen she has this sort of swirly hypnotic background her voice is very droning and hypnotic and um it’s easy to just kind of get sucked into watching these videos and um that’s when I was like my Spidey senses were like she’s doing something unique and maybe disturbing I don’t know I want to know what’s going on um but yeah I think a lot of people they would just and now it’s it’s happening all over with Tik Tok and Instagram stories where they kind of get recommended her videos and she’s very alluring and so they’ll just keep watching and I talked to some people who they said they they watched her YouTube videos or they put them on in the background as they were sleeping just kind of becomes a constant and so our teachings really come in in a different way and you hear this with like old cult lead leaders and spiritual gurus where you go to these meetings and conferences and you kind of it it puts you to sleep like hearing these people talk it’s very droning and that way you’re kind of like you’re in this sort of sleep state but the information is still coming in and it’s a good way to indoctrinate um do do you really think that that’s a that’s a like almost like a hypnotic education like you become in sort of like this Lial conscious non-conscious State yeah I mean that’s there are so-called cult experts who have said that um I mean I’m not I’m not an expert on the psychology of it but yeah I think like it’s there are all these kind of easy sort of mind control which is a loaded term uh but like yeah different ways to like really um indoctrinate somebody I think that can be effective um you know where you’re kind of like you’re getting the information and you’re there but you’re sort of L to sleep and wow but you know it’s like there is this kind of balance of like used to be you had to go to a on a spiritual pilgrimage or go to a get go to like a a business meet marketing thing whatever find the book you had to meet someone like the contagion had to be one to one in real life but now the contagion for these sort of ideas and these ideological groups can happen and proliferate like exponentially through through digital yeah yeah and uh she was doing that early on where she was kind of using some of those techniques I think that really hook somebody for better or worse I mean I think uh she has probably helped a lot of or a lot of people probably say that she helped them but it was she was using she was really smart with how to use the internet and YouTube to she just put out videos about everything she when I was reporting on her this was like 2017 I mean she had videos about like weight loss and chakras and crypto and self harm and like everything like she was just pumping them out and um so there anytime you’re looking for something you know there’s a Teal Swan video Yeah and people would tell me you know I put my intention into the universe and YouTube delivered this video and I was like I don’t know if that’s the Universe I think that’s just you know the algorithms and good SEO and um and then she told me she was using SEO that she knew people like especially like suicide and self harm that’s something that if you there’s not people are there’s so much stigma there that people are afraid to talk about it um so there was a period where if you Googled I want to kill myself the first video that popped up was teal Swan’s yoube I want to kill myself parenthesis what to do if you’re suicidal I mean this seems like a good video though like like I would hope that if you are someone that is having ideation you would click on this video and this person would say hey your parents love you and there’s so much more to live for and life’s amazing and you’re going through a depressive episode and maybe you should see clinical help yeah that’s what I want the video to say yeah um is that what the video said no no did not yeah uh it can you paraphrase what the video said so it it’s she in it there I mean there’s a lot of that’s the problem it’s like hard to be the one to condense everything that somebody says over but there was a whole library of work I don’t want you to be but Arbiter of everything she says right but she would she was accused of romanticizing suicide um basically you know saying she would say things like it’s a reset button it feels very good to die um don’t be afraid of death things like that yeah because she’s she’s lived many lives and um she would she know she apparently knows that how it can feel good to die and that it can feel like a reset but she won’t necessarily say like and you should do it but she would be like if it was like this balance like it feels very good to die I understand why you want to do it but you shouldn’t but you know it’s like this like this weird yeah so and it I think it helped because you I talked to people who they they they went through a really dark time in their life and like spirituality helped them out of it but a lot of spirituality the time was very woowoo and optimistic and she was one that made a safe space for these darker topics now can have you used the CW when referring to her not that c word the other the other c word I I never called her a cult leader okay um I think since that came out more people have um I don’t know I think like she where I landed on that is like she kind of challenged my view of like what it means to be like a cult in the Modern Age like I think I I don’t know like but yeah she she’s been accused of being exploitative and um a cult leader and stuff but I I see her more as like a spiritual leader that is doing something that was doing something very very unique at the time so now could you give me and for any of the potential you know audience that’s like sort of interested in these kinds of ideas what would be a healthy framework to discern between someone that is you know maybe a a cult leader that’s you know proliferating their ideas through digital and maybe someone that is like a genuinely you know good actor that is putting out like positive mental health information or spiritual information of the world what would be sort of like a checklist or criteria that I could look at to discern yeah I there are again like there’s good there’s people who really lean into like Steve Hassen um Yan Lich these are cult experts that have their own kind of guides Rick Ross um Rick Ross Rick Ross not that Rick Ross sorry yeah I know it’s a those are kind of the three uh riy Ros That’s crazy dude uh Joe simart is another anyway I just want to give them credit and like say if you’re like listening you know kind of to them and their guides got it for the breakdown of what you know whether you’re in a cult or not um I think like any time where there’s kind of like unquestionable like a Power Balance and you’re kind of giving just a higher authority to somebody and then there’s you know that leaves room for predatory behavior um but yeah what was the like how can you discern like I think there’s like U at least I have an awareness of like these old like ‘ 80s you know style cult videos and it’s like how don’t know if you’re in a cult and they’re on VHS and it’s like you know love bombing you show up at at an organization and you say something they all cheer for you and they say welcome home and you’re at your place you’re supposed to be and you know when you join us you become more like yourself and then they slowly start isolating you from your family and then they kind of cut you off and then maybe they get blackmail on you or they put you in a compromising situation da d d da again these are all in physical spaces right and now we’re in this digital age where all of it can happen digitally which is almost potentially more concerning because as we know we are in this loneliness epidemic yes you know like specifically amongst like men I think women as well I don’t know someone quote me on these statistics like the rates of men that claim they have one or two close friends have been going down and down and down people are more socially fragmented obviously I think religion and nationalism and sort of like these greater ideas that people attach themselves to have kind of eroded socially and so now it feels like people are kind of belonging so I could definitely see a situation where there is a digital guru absolutely and then people B to congregate in these digital spaces yeah and they’re already isolated from their family you don’t even have to do anything and then hey submit some money we’re going to do a retreat da d da so I guess I’m kind of curious like you know how can I make sure that because there’s a lot of people I follow on the internet that I really really like that like you know psychologists and you know thought leaders and authors online I’m sure we can think of you know 20 people um and a lot of which I really like yeah so how do I know if these people are have my best interest in mind is there like a a delineating thing or a phrasing or a terminology I should be you know like red flagging yeah and they OB they could start from a good place and go I mean one of the this this was in um The Vow the Nexium cult one of the the whistleblowers in it Mark vente says it’s kind of the iconic quote from that that shows nobody joins a cult they they join something they think is really good you know you think you’re changing the world and so it could start from a a lot of these uh YouTubers or whatever could start from a good place and then it gets dark as power corrupt them or whatever um I think to answer your question one of the groups that I’ve been investigating most recently that really seems to have all the Hallmarks of something very concerning that’s happening entirely online that um it’s very clear that it’s it’s isolating people and and ruining families um is this uh the leader her name is lyanna Shanti uh I did a big article uh that came out last year but I’m doing more ongoing reporting about it because since the article came out I’ve just flooded with more and more people um and it’s so much bigger than I thought but she it’s a group that caters that um that really seem to Target like women mothers um it it it’s she’s been around forever it’s um how do I so it was created by this this former Wall Street lawyer who uh she became sort of a a built this like online Persona that’s totally separate from who she really is so in the the avatars are like not really don’t seem to be a depiction of who she really is it’s almost like she created the sort of fictional character or this alternate version of herself entirely online and she was giving kind of empowerment advice business advice V like like Health advice um and over the years it kind of became more extreme and then during Co it became extremely extreme it became like so she it started like saying like don’t don’t use um don’t use zoom because that’s how they kind of can capture your soul or whatever they being there’s a race of reptilian overlords uh that uh feed that you know they’re luciferian satanic they feed off of our um energy and uh Co was all a part of that and they’re going to round up your children um in the FEMA camps and give them the force the vaccine which kills your soul and if you go near anybody who’s been vaccinated it sheds on you and kills your soul um obviously that stuff didn’t happen but her story keeps kind of evolving much like you see with a lot of these sort of conspiracy Cults um it’s very like qanon adjacent um I call it I mean I’m not the first to but like woan on is kind of a new it’s like these you know spir conspirituality type groups wow um that’s an interesting term conspirituality yeah there’s a um a podcast called conspirituality that dives into all of um and it’s they they they really go deep on um probably a lot of the people that you um listen to respect I mean they they really they’re like just such nerds about it of conspirituality um that’s a separate topic but this this group um it was like all these especially during Co where it’s like these moms who you know they were stuck in with their husbands and like [ __ ] was coming out you know like just being cooped up with somebody with kids and uh this leader had them all listen to these online courses over and over I mean they pay a lot for these courses and they’re they’re just and I’ve talked to these husbands that’re like my my partner just like transformed overnight cuz you just would be out in the yard listening to these courses and started accusing them of horrible things um and I mean fast forward uh it’s like this this group of that’s around the world it’s called like they’re called like lamarian sisters and um they’ve all sort of been pulled into this group and uh a lot of them lyanna sort of urge them to to take their kids by sort basically any means necessary um and move them to Florida because there’s only a few there’s three safe states in the in the world it’s Texas Wyoming and Florida and Florida’s the the safest because there’s going to be this sort of big apocalyptic thing involving the vaccine or whatever um and so they all kind of were moving into these homes together um do you know where in Florida roughly it doesn’t matter I mean they they I think there was one major home called destiny manner that I think it was tallah yeah I don’t want to yeah but um they it’s basically just just get get to these certain PL and they were kind of based on where the restrictions were the least strict um but uh it’s it just I mean it was like dozens if not hundreds of of moms were kind of pulled into this and it was like entirely online it started through Facebook and then it kind of migrated to private signal groups and now she has her own app and uh they keep buying these programs and it’s also sort of run like a multi-level marketing like uh they have to sell the programs to other people um but it’s its own isolated Community where I and she would say like only listen to um media that I share in the Facebook group and so she would share clips of podcasts that kind of fit with her teachings which was constantly evolving there’s always like new kind of boogey men ripped from the headlines you know it’s like first it’s the vaccine but then once that kind of moved on she would it was different things that she was telling people to to worry about that could harm your children um and then oh it was like one big and if anybody like questions her they kind of get kicked out and then all of their their like confessions will get posted um so like one one woman she was like when when lyanna was like don’t listen any don’t listen to any other podcast no Med that I that unless I posted here she was like what about Joe Rogan I thought you like Joe Rogan and she’s like I can’t believe you question me she started in this because there’s this nature of confess confessions which is common with a lot of groups it’s like where your therapist now tell us all your dirty secrets also hear some C dirty secrets that you don’t even remember you know that happen and like you get people thinking like oh I can’t believe I was I did these terrible things and they confess to him and then you have like recorded um you know groups that I’m not going to say public know they like have been accused of like um getting people to record things or even fake things about their family to um because then you have this like collateral that if you leave then they’ll share this information wow so now through these Facebook groups where there’s this sense of like we all have to confess all of our sins so you have lyanna has like all these thing like people’s post posting these um terrible things that they’ve done or that have happened to them true or not and then once they leave or they get kicked out because they want to listen to Joe Rogan or whatever she will then post them on cuz she on her Instagram she has like 23,000 27,000 followers uh and she’s posting all day every day all these conspiracy theories and her teachings and then once she somebody gets kicked out they’re like an example of like Satan got them so she’ll start posting all their confession like screenshots of their confessions and like tagging their employers or their family members um it just yeah so it’s it’s she’s an example of how in the past you really had to be like if you were had Tendencies of of a cult leader sociopathy narcissism whatever you still had to put in a lot of work and like everything kind of had to line for you um now you can just kind of become a pry on social media or kind of the algorithm sort of brings people who may be receptive to your messaging to you and that power can kind of corrupt you and then you can sort of you see this now like even on Tik Tok people kind of become like mini spiritual cult leaders because they get canceled or something and then for saying something out of mainstream and then all of a sudden people are like flocking to them and then that kind of power like overnight they have all this power and influence um and then you see them sort of become more radical and pull people more into radical thinking so not only is it making it easier to sort of create a cult leader online it’s easier to do all the sort of the the have the tools of a of a cult where you’re collecting collateral very easily by people posting things on Facebook or whatever and then you can more easily weaponize that collateral by posting and tagging employers you it used to be like a group would have to this is a common tactic of a group that I will not name but like they’ll get all this Intel and all your confessions and then they’ll start a website with your name buy all all the domains uh it’s also like what doers do or you know like internet trolls you know they buy all the do domain names and they’ll post your confessions or um and now you can just easily do that on your phone so this is a situation that could happen where you know you’re pre like 2019 you’re married to a woman she has a baby like you have a family you have two kids and then all of a sudden she is a little skeptical of all the things happening around you know Co policy she’s looking understandably so it’s a crazy ass time yeah it’s insane there’s all this conflicting information no one knows what’s going on all the institutions of like social trust are kind of gone you know like who do we look to as like our our uh Guiding Light in this um maybe historically it could have been religion it could have been a Litany of different things so now people are sort of lost they’re online uh your wife is now listening to this one woman that has all the answers and she’s figured it out and she’s listening not all day non-stop and then one morning you wake up and your wife and your kids are gone yeah and you’re like hey where are you her the number’s blocked her phone line is dead and then you find out that she moved your kids basically kidnapped them moved them to a place in Florida and now she’s living in this quasi digital somewhat real group where now she’s telling secrets about her trauma her life and all of this is used as collateral against her to where she can’t leave you summed it up better than me that’s that’s that was a pretty clear pattern that was happening that’s been happening um I mean that is heartbreaking for everyone involved but like obviously I’m thinking about it from like the dude’s perspective like my wife and kids are now gone yeah and hey even if you’re able to get a hold of her like babe you got to get out of this what are you doing she’s like look I want to leave but I told them this and they have pictures of this and they know about this and if I if I leave they could buy up a domain and leak all of it and it’s happened before and and I I I mean for me it’s the the kids that are wrapped up in this yeah um because uh but yeah it’s it’s a lot of dads that um their lives are completely and and also there’s there in it involves a lot of accusations like um against the father for doing horrible things um and I can’t I don’t know that all these guys aren’t great or terrible like I’m I’m not gonna I’m not here to absolve all these men but there’s a pattern of most women who join um lyanna helps them realize the men were abusing the children either legitimately like some of these men might be scumbags or illegit yeah I can’t I don’t know but um but what the pattern is like they’ll post on so and there’s a signal group where they they get to post like questions and she can read the acostic records which is the information of the universe it’s kind of like a a spirituality thing um she reads the acostic records and she’ll answer their questions and so I saw a lot of instances people would leak these to me and it’s like I um my my my son is wetting the bed what it what why and it’s like well because this the father sex they were sexually abused um and then you’re like why would this woman make this up she must she must know like who who would just makes set up and he is wetting the bed there’s there’s proof like I have something substantial that I can stand on yeah and it’s but it’s the yeah the there are many reason yeah but she’s able to Loop it back and sort of like kind of Gaslight them in a way into believing that there’s something nefarious happening when there might have been nothing happening right and I like one this is in the reporting um one woman who um she kind of helped me understand the whole scope so she got into it because uh and she’s one that now she’s out of it but um she uh was it was her third pregnancy she was having postpartum issues a lot of weird weight fluctuation and feeling like not in a good place and doctors she sort of felt like gas lit by mainstream medicine you know doctors like this is just in your head D she’s like I don’t want to feel this way I’m not making this up so she went looking online she found the front Group which is the health Mastery Institute a Facebook group and in it you had all these women that were like hey clear out don’t don’t use um uh don’t um eat processed foods and it’ll balance out your hormones and sure enough that work mostly it was just like having the validation that she wish the doctors had given her that she wasn’t crazy and you had all this group of women and then she felt better and then they’re like okay you’ve healed your body now heal your mind and spirit let’s go deeper in so they join the the deeper Facebook group which is the lamarian mystery school and that’s where lanna’s kind of Lord and Savior um so there then there’s like getting more into like more more radical and spiritual teachings then you you pay to join the Facebook group where you get the really one-on-one you get she answers questions hey my kid’s wedding the wet bed what why why why is that happening she’s like well it’s he’s been abused um and this woman in particular her she just had a a family member die that was really hard for her and um lyanna said well that was the person abusing your kid and so she goes to the husband she’s like hey I think so and so abused her kid and the husband’s like what are you you’re just listening to someone online and like so she goes back to lyanna she’s like my husband’s challenging you and lyanna’s like well that’s because he was also abusing the kid so this woman who’s now left she was like I got so in deep like over time cuz I was like why well this is helping me to like why would this woman who everybody is saying is helping like why would she make these things up and then so she becomes so convinced that something’s happening to her kid so she start she says she started like asking she started filming the kid and and she knew kid had been abused she just needed the kid to like admit it so she was like coaching the kid to say the dad abused him she said said now like now I know I I could not have asked for a better husband but I was so in deep that I thought this was happening I needed proof the mother was doing this yeah so she called child protective services and got them involved uh accusing and trying to get the kid to say and like kids brain you know if you if you push a kid to think that something happen I mean uh like there was a big thing of the satanic Panic where it’s like all these these social workers that were convincing kids they were used by Satanist or whatever like that can become a very real memory especially if somebody that you really believe like your mother convinces you so all these kids now are being indoctrinated too and um they’re afraid to go out a lot of these kids are if they go I’ve heard of instances where like the kids would go to uh be with their grandparents and if their grandparents have been vaccinated the mom would be like oh my God I have to they would give them coffee anemas to clear out the cuz the vaccine shed on them so they they’re trying that’s the whole thing of the teaching is you have to clear out the parasites and whatever um so these kids are wrapped up in this messy situation the dads are being accused of horrible things and like being investigated by child protective services and then the women the moms will um you know basically take the kids and move them across country borders state borders to Florida um you know a lot of them are coming in from um Canada or other countries wow um so this is a a group that’s still actively and I get I get people reach out to me um every you know couple weeks or so with new tips uh or like I didn’t understand what was going on with my family until I read your article and now it all makes sense um wow and this is radical example but I think a lot of groups like this are happening where it’s just you know it makes it really easy to create an online cult wow and I’m sure with you know a lot of uh like a legal protections you know with like children and mothers right like rightfully so like the mother child bond is like so like fundamental to you know I think like human development so if a if a mother is moving her kids it might be a little bit harder legally to even investigate and they’ be like look the kids with their mom they seem safe and they’re leaving an abusive situation and how do you prove the abuse yeah it’s um it’s very messy for a lot of reasons I think that you’re touching on one of them that it’s just like people like there child I don’t know and then they’re moving to another country and they’re like I don’t know this is Florida’s Problem now it’s and and she again she’s a former lawyer the the the leader behind this whole thing she knows so she’s pretty good at kind of knowing what she can tell people to do legally and like and she also is good at keeping her hands clean she has other people below her kind of giving the more potentially like criminal order or I don’t yeah it’s um wow so now any of the women that you spoke with that got out what was the collateral to them once they left so because uh yeah so they’re they’re posting um these like like in these signal groups where people are like um they’re asking her questions and she’s like all the time she’s like hey I think my somebody um what happened to me and she it’s always like so and so abused you or so and so abused your kid I mean it almost always would seem to go there um where she just takes it to just a whole other level of Darkness um it could be from like wedding bed to like why do I feel this way way and it’s like a lot of times it goes to Childhood abuse so you have these people being like talking about like and she’s like you just need to listen to more of my recordings and they’ll start to come out and you listen to her recordings I mean they’re very hypnotic I mean there she when when T people tipped me I got the story because people tipped me um CU they were like this is Teal Swan to like a whole other level um her courses are very hypnotic and they they make you sort of go deep into reflection on your family in your past history and they like sink into your trauma like anytime that you were in a um it kind of makes you look back on your memories with like a Dark Cloud Sure like any any memory like that time you were left in the car that was abuse that time like if your dad was really hugged you a lot like that was sex that was actually grooming and she says it with such Authority like that was actually like if your dad um was you know CU dads are alpha males and there’s a lot of also kind of that kind of uh um Andrew Tate sort of alpha masculinity weirdly brought into it it’s any kind of new big uh kind of conspiracy adjacent or just charismatic influencer kind of seems to seep into it’s like her group her teachings are constantly evolving but um yeah anyway if it’s saying like a dad touch you too much it he was grooming you and he was abusive and so a lot of people like it starts to they start looking back on their their childhood interactions in a much darker way and they’ll post like oh my God maybe my dad did abuse me so then she has that so it’s people that are uncovering things through listening to her hours and hours of of hypnotic programming that they’re having these new realizations and you get valid once you post like the sort of Sisterhood and her like yes that’s good more like you need to uncover more and so you’re you’re getting validated by posting these confessions and are the confessions to the group like can everyone that’s within this inner sanctum see it or is it only to her it’s a so it’s a lot of face it’s I think they’ve moved off Facebook more recently but it was a lot of Facebook posts private group or in the signal um uh and signal is an encrypted messaging platform yes yeah yeah um like WhatsApp or all that but um yeah so you’re you’re posting it there for everybody and in the Facebook group she had to approve everything so they’re only people are only saying things they think she’ll approve and she would say don’t talk she would apparently say Don’t Talk Amongst each other separately I I can’t monitor the energy so people are only allowed to really talk in the Facebook group messages that she approves and again this is a thing where like a lot of cult likee groups um there’s a lot of information control you can’t there’s like in The Fellowship of friends there’s rules about no gossiping um and so but with it’s all kind of in this it’s all there it’s it’s like baked into the platform form where information control like the language they use key wordss that only mean something to each other language is a big thing where like in the fellowship there’s certain words so once they go back to their family and they’re describing their feelings using only sort of Fellowship lingo there’s this alienation baked in and your family’s like I don’t even know you anymore and then you’re like my family doesn’t even get me anymore like language that pushes you deeper in yeah there’s a great book called cultist the language of fanaticism by Amanda Montel who’s like a linguist and and goes deep into this but language is such a big part and now you see that with like corporate culture like Amazon has its own words that Bezos comes up with that sort of trickle down and um but yeah language is big with alienation and you know you see that with like podcast groups or you know it’s like you kind of need to know the lingo in order to like get in on the group but then you’re sort of part of part of whatever gang or right but which is kind of fun when you’re doing it with like sort of like an Entertainment Group or it’s kind of like you know like oh I listen to you know like this influencer and we’re part of this group or I’m a fan of this sports team you know what I mean that means that I’m a totally and like that’s I mean that’s patriotism it’s like we it’s like that’s that’s baked into everything it’s tapping into these tribal things that we already do naturally but then drives it even deeper where it’s like you must talk in this way and now that there’s a loneliness epidemic and we don’t we we kind of we missing out on that like you used to get that from like school pride or fraternities or something and now um where during covid and just in general a lot of Institutions are crumbling um it makes there’s a there’s like a god-sized hole in our hearts or like a community Siz soul in our hearts that these grifters can very easily fill dude I mean and it’s so Insidious too because it’s almost like horoscopes in a way where it’s like if you if I look back on all of my you know childhood history right like nothing bad ever happened to me but it’s not only the bad so there certainly there’s you know a massive amount of people that have legitimate trauma and so it’s pretty easy to look at your legitimate trauma and be like oh this happened and this is the cure this this person This Woman This you know this woman you’re talking 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memories and really fully form memories until we’re six like our rain is still you know so everything before that’s kind of cobbled together there’s like little puzzle pieces and it’s very easy for a guru or somebody of influence a therapist even to be like put all those pieces together for you and like have a a memory that’s sort of cobbled from other things and um it’s so usually the people that are characters in that those early memories that a therapist or psychi or um cult leader is helping you form the characters in that are um family members so it’s easy to then alienate the family because they’re the source of all of your trauma and I alone can help you fix this but cut out your family so that’s kind of the easy hack uh of Cults or predatory spiritual groups is when they’re kind of going into childhood memories and telling you what it really meant and yeah and if you’re then posting about it or being recorded talking about it yeah and then not to mention you are if everything you’re saying is needing to be approved by the leader yeah you can’t like if you’re you’re thinking like oh maybe I was abused yeah might not get approved but if you say now that I think about it I definitely was abused so now you even changing your language in the way you think about it and I think it’s pretty like well documented that like our memories are malleable yeah like you know you look at uh you know like witness testimonies and I forget I was watching like some Netflix documentary but like they basically like have an event that happens and they document the event and then they record people that witnessed it yeah and they’re like oh what did the guy look like and there’s eight different accounts of what it looked like and all these people are legitimately recalling their memories but memories are fallacious in and of themselves right yeah I mean that is terrifying yeah I mean especially if it’s I mean this is why like coerced testimonies I mean if if uh even if you don’t respect police you know if you’re in a in a uh a room for hours and they’re in a position of authority whether or not you eat or go to the bathroom so they can very easily we know somebody with a a sense of authority over you can influence your memories of you’ve had people make false confessions and they they leave like fully believing they killed somebody I guess I did do it yeah How could somebody with yeah um and then once you’ve said it becomes real uh but yeah so that that happens a lot with I mean memory false memories is a very messy thing um to go into but yeah I think I mean this was something that the with myal Swan reporting and lyanna Shany that it does seem like she is able to kind of influence memories and have people come up with things that did not happen or um after they left were like I realized that was totally bogus and I was just doing it for the validation that is so scary so then these women that get out one how did they get out and two what was the actual like recourse that happened to them like did they suffer career damage you like obviously there’s familial things that I’m sure they’re putting together but uh was there actual like blackmail or coercion that was put out to try to make them stay let’s go back to that um the woman who you know she had the um uh the is issue with the hospital like she was um postart issues and then she ended up coaching her kids to say things um she ended up like having sort of a mental breakdown like so much anxiety from uncovering these new things and like oh my God my kids are being abused and now like I’m trying to cut us off from our husband she ended up checking herself into an institution and she went through um electric shock therapy uh just cuz but she was like worried that she was going to harm her kids or harm herself um but she said that she sort of deprogrammed because she no longer had access to Facebook and so that that’s what kind of cut her off and then she and also you know lyanna says don’t talk to therapist no couples therapy because they’re all evil they’re satanic yeah so once she realized these people are actually helping me um and they don’t they’re they’re not acting like way how she you know says whatever that that sort of broke the programming and now she’s out and um she she realized she can’t like the marriage is not they’re not saving the marriage but she’s like we’re still co-parenting we’re doing I’m I’m I’m trying to she’s trying to get her life back together or was at the time when I was interviewing her um but yeah a lot of these people they that leave um it’s their families are torn apart um uh it’s it’s it’s really hard um yeah it’s hard to get their job back and then a lot of them are they’re trying to get their job back but then lyanna will they’re trying to get a new job but lyanna will tag that employer with all of these crazy things and and so the woman that you spoke with did this happen to her no she um she kind of stayed off lyanna’s radar um but there are people who like the the woman who who uh she’d been with lyanna forever and um she when lyanna said you can only listen to she was she was back she was with lyanna back when it was more friendly and less less like radical and then over time it got and then when lyanna started saying you can only listen to media that I post this woman was like wait I what about Joe Rogan and Leon was like out out I she made an example of like one of her like it was basically one of the 12 apostles and uh then she started posting I guess when this woman um this is in the article um this woman had um a really bad pregnancy and Al and like had to uh in a very late stage had to sort of make the the like decision to to uh to end it and I guess was feeling very conflicted of like basically Lanna kind of made her think like she killed her kid and so she was like went to lyanna First her spiritual teacher and like was like I can’t believe I killed my kid d da um which is not an accurate way of how it went down like she she did the most Humane she did the best thing that she could do in a very very difficult situation that I will never face um and and then when when she got kicked out lyanna was posting all these things and calling her like a baby murderer and all the and just like yeah um so then people didn’t they don’t want to leave you know um because they don’t want that to happen her and then and then like it’s like this Lanna was like tagging her employers and like stuff like that it’s just gets real dark I mean this is insane yeah so how many members of this specific organization how many could you estimate are like leaving their families or moving is is there a number you could put on it yeah I think at the I heard like kind of at uh one Peak the kind of devoted people who are paying regularly and involved uh it was like 160 okay um she has again 27,000 Instagram followers I think a lot of them aren’t real I think maybe the majority of them aren’t real you know it’s easy to buy and buy followers um I think there’s dedicated core of like 100 to 200 um I I yeah I think a lot of them were making efforts to cut off their families and move to other places and how many organizations like this do you think exist like these digital sort of communities that are at best like you know like misguided and at worst like Sinister I mean I get a lot of tips um about things like this this seemed like a good I don’t it’s hard to say I know uh uh I mean there there’s been taking like online Cults for sure since Co sure um but it’s hard to you know it’s like a lot of them are just kind of dismissed as like conspiracy cranks but like because of used to be like you know you had a radio program from your um you know AM station from your trailer you know and you were just like spewing about UFOs but yeah not to like not to antagonize any of your past guests but you know like I’m just saying the the the you know the the stereotypical uh online conspiracy theorist sure um but yeah now they can all kind of band together and start their own group and it’s easy for one of them to kind of become the leader I I don’t know I wouldn’t be surprised if there are thousands of these these kind of online groups happening all over oh my God and so what can you do so like one I guess I’m curious about like the legal component like what can the United States government the government of Florida and and then even more granularly what could you know like a son or a husband or a sister a mom do if they find their you know someone in their family that’s drawn into these organizations well what happened with her with Lanna legally so she had uh the the real person behind it her name is Le lean Wilson lyanna Shanti is kind of this online Alter Ego that she created so it’s it’s sort of a catfish group like she created this catfish sort of cult leader that’s a fictional version of herself her name no it’s uhow she um yeah she’s created she had I think a this iosa Retreat and I think the shaman like gave her this new I don’t know she came out of it with this new name created this sort of Facebook group where that was her self-help coach thing um but yeah so Leanne Wilson uh years years ago was uh uh convicted of bankruptcy fraud um and she is currently on probation uh and when the article came out uh it got on the radar of her probation officer so she ended up having to go to court um and basically where the the judge landed is like um it’s kind of outside of her purview to determine if like this all this crazy cult accusations really break her bankruptcy fraud but um I think she is so she but so even yeah the judge seemed to think like there’s a lot going on here that I can’t get into but maybe somebody else should look into this but it’s just like she’s based in Hawaii she doesn’t want anybody to go to Hawai cuz nobody has ever seen her or like met her like she this was the thing with like the Zoom thing she said don’t don’t do Zoom because they can’t capture they’ll capture your soul so she would not and she would say videos are evil so it was like all photos but they’re very heavily it’s very obvious that her photos are all like photoshopped or manipulated um she recently did go back on you she said no no video but now that there was more after the article there was more pressure to show who she is so she posts videos but they’re they look very like the eyes don’t move really with the face tuned and yeah it yeah um and I’ve dug I did dig up an old photo of her and she looks very different from what um she seems to have she must have like deaged 30 years and yeah but uh anyway so she’s in Hawaii she doesn’t want anybody to be near her so nobody’s really seen her but so the fact that she’s in Hawaii and a lot of the people are in other countries or in Florida um and she’s really pretty safe about not like having her sort of there’s this term flying monkeys which is kind of like the Inner Circle um obviously like an Wizard of Oz reference where it’s like you have a lot of Cults have their flying monkeys to kind of do their their bidding and so she has a lot of so-called kind of people that have been referred to as flying monkeys to sort of do the do the more questionable things for her or like we’ll tell the women how to get through the Canadian border um to avoid vaccine mandates or whatever you know wow yeah and then if you’re a family member like what could you do to try to pull someone out I I think um just be as understanding and open as possible like go against um the sort of pro programming that your family doesn’t get it and they don’t understand this new Awakening like be open and curious and open-minded about the the maybe crazy things they’re saying and do whatever you can to kind of challenge that programming um I I asked actually I had a I have a one of my best friends um she was raised in Nexium and um she we actually met uh totally by coincidence she had she had just left Nexium and um it was the day Keith got arrested uh I’m I’m getting back to like advice to I got a good nugget from her but um Keith the the leader Keith and N had gotten arrested it was all over the news and she was like oh my God this thing that I’m trying to escape is like everywhere she was like I just need to meet a random dude in Brooklyn who has nothing to do with Colts so she got on Bumble and we matched um were you already covering Colts at this point yeah I just gotten back from a cult compound no and I was like I want to you know uh so I had yeah had been reporting on Teal Swan I’d been out there and so I told her I just got back from a reporting trip you know and we met at this bar in uh Fort green and uh she like one drink in she’s like so what do you what do you report on where were you and I was like ah it’s kind of weird I report on Cults uh and um she said she’s like at the time I was like what the what what the [ __ ] like what are the [ __ ] chances like is what am I being you know and but she was like I either this guy’s either going to like try to get my story or he’ll understand and as she has tells it now like I was a human about it I was like where are you in your healing Journey are you you know doing okay MH um and yeah we just became good friends uh and for her it was it I think it was really good to have somebody who sort of understood and didn’t I didn’t need to ask her a million questions because I already knew the kind of dynamics of what she’d been through and for me it just is very formative for talking two people in her situation and whenever I’m like using quotes from people I’m like what if this was my friend how would she want to be represented and and I’ll run things by her sometimes like what do you think how should I handle this messy situation because there’s not really like a it’s a it’s it’s a weird ethical territory you know like when you’re reporting on this kind of nuance complex stuff but uh she anyway I asked her once cuz a lot of people ask me and I’ve had family members that have been pulled into things that are questionable I think we’re all sort of experiencing that right now where people are getting pulled into some pretty what could seem like crazy beliefs but yeah she said just um if that person like needs money to join a group offer that money offer everything you can like that you’re able to without you know sacrif because then a lot of these groups they’re like oh if your if your parent if your family doesn’t you’re already showing that you’re like invested in what their what their journey is and like you care about them and that kind of goes against the programming oh wow that you know your family doesn’t get you um which kind of counterintuitive like exactly yeah my my knee-jerk like if my sister came to me was like hey I heard about this group I want to move out there I want to go to the retreat I’d be like [ __ ] no are you crazy ex exactly and that’s that’s ex you’re you’re totally playing falling into the program so I’d be like hey I’ll support you I got your back I don’t think you’re crazy so how about you go check it out you know be Discerning don’t tell him anything you know what I mean be smart about it and then when you get back let’s let’s talk yeah and then ask the next thing is ask non-judgmental questions that could engage their critical thinking what would be an example of that like um uh you know what like what’s the so why why do they have you do that thing like that that like that’s kind of cool or weird or like new age I don’t know like that’s I’m you know like but why like why do you and that that’s usually where I come out with these groups because I’m like I’m like here for it I’m like let’s let’s get weird you know we were talking earlier about like Catholicism versus um uh Pentecostal stuff I’m like yeah give me a give me a [ __ ] snake and like some tongues like if I’m going to if I’m going to like I’m down to party let’s see some [ __ ] yeah so I’m like uh there somebody if I had a loved one in a group I’d be like yeah like that’s weird but like I’m a journalist so like I can’t help but be curious Wonder like why what’s the reason that and a lot of times I think they can’t you know and if if if so many times they’re answering like oh because that’s just what we’re told I don’t know you you can you can sometimes you I talked to people who are leaving um and they’re kind of like I had people who were leaving lyanna Shanti and like one person was like I uh I’m trying to determine if you’re like a reptile or not and I was like well that’s you know cool of you to reach out and figure out on your own did you his at her now with some people leaving I’ve like made jokes uh cuz when the the story came out lyanna told her followers that I she weirdly like didn’t use my name or have she didn’t want anybody to read the article so she just said I’m like a I’m a beta jellyfish energy like I’m a beta male like Blobby like she’s like he hasn’t published anything in years he just I don’t even know why he and then people would listen I went on a few podcast after because there’s like this whole cult podcast Network that you know you do the rounds um and some of them listen to that and they’re like you don’t you’re not at all like what she was describing you as and so if she’s wrong about that then what else is she wrong about m she’s in a sort of a catch CU if she’s like oh look at his article and you’ll see how stupid it is and you lay out all of these very coherent you know examples and you’re not judgmental and you’re kind of open-minded about it yeah all of a sudden they can look at it and you know some of them might be like wait a second I should reach out to him but actually I think doing stuff like this more is more helpful cuz more people have been like I heard you on the podcast explaining these things rather than like I read the article and that you know cuz you know there’s a lot of uh you know nobody knows what they can read online and they’re like what what’s the agenda behind it but when you talk to somebody it helps you understand a little where they’re coming from right um yeah so I uh but yeah so I’ve had people who were leaving and I I kind of I just I’m like look I don’t know lyanna might like she could have access to the acostic records like I have no way of proving any of these things but um this is what I don’t understand and like why have these predictions like why did she she said this thing we have it in writing that she said this but then that didn’t come to be was she lying like I I need to know as somebody who you know you were in it you know better than me you know just like it’s a way to come about it where you’re not like dismissing him as crazy yeah and there’s that old quote right like you can’t reason someone out of out of a position they didn’t reason thems into yeah and so if these are all like these emotional pulls your kids are getting abused you are getting abused yeah like you it’s hard to be like hey you know point A B and C logic right like and I think that probably goes for like most cults yeah well again the cognitive dissonance of of apocalyptic you know like you’ve you’ve it logically makes no sense but emotionally you’re so bought in you’re so invested and you’re so afraid there’s so much fear that’s involved and it seems like that seems like a Common Thread across everything is fear yeah and that if you can scare these people enough you can convince them to do whatever it is that you need them to do and especially if it’s concerned over their children’s safety like that’s why I really feel for because it’s like she’s weaponizing a part of like the the Mother Brain where it’s like literally they don’t care about they they want they really want their kids to not be pulled into some luciferian you know evil whatever yeah I mean it’s just so Insidious and I’m curious what is the motivation for like these digital gurus like you know this this guy you’re talking about Robert out west like he’s obviously seems like a sex addict or has like a power situation you know there’s a lot of different things we could speculate uh and there seems like a very clear incentive right you’re buying Renaissance art going around the world for someone like this that’s completely completely remote what I mean I I I know you might not necessar have an answer but could you speculate what some motivations are for these specific types of coal leaders M um I think uh so I think uh it’s e it’s an easy buck and it’s good to feel sense of power I mean it’s like again do you think they have a pathology do you think they are you know sociopathic or narcissistic I think it it takes that to to be a good uh charismatic Guru or cult leader uh takes good it’s good to have that it makes you it makes for a good when you really have no shame um and I think when in the past some of these people just could have gone about their lives and maybe been in abusive partner or whatever uh the internet gives them access to and uh the these platforms uh it is in their interest uh to bring the Willing masses the most susceptible people to people like that’s that’s engagement baby you know like that’s that’s how you get and like it’s all money to these platforms so um it sort of these I don’t and I don’t think it’s like you have these uh evil Tech overlords like but it’s just like the algorithm sort of brings everybody together um and then that fuels that part of the brain that is uh sociopathic narcissistic to create a cult um but yeah I think for her I think it maybe started from a good place um lyanna or Leanne um was a uh she was a Wall Street lawyer she was I think 8 months pregnant during 9/11 after that she was like she said she was like [ __ ] this I’m getting out she became a time share saleswoman in Hawaii was incredible at um selling uh time shares um and she was I think it was a very uh toxic work environment she was a part of a class action lawsuit where there was a lot of like even though she was selling like millions of dollars of time shares like men were getting the credit her boss was very I mean this was all in the lawsuit she spoke out about it against it like against sexual misconduct and stuff and then she got fired um and then she did this iasa retreat thing and sort of came out of it decided to be a women empowerment self-help Guru in the early days it was very simple like giving women good advice about how to start their businesses and how to do a vegan cleanse and uh or juice cleanse and um over time people started saying like you cured me from cancer uh or you like changed my life or like I had postpartum issues and now and I think enough people tell you you you’re you’ve got some sort of higher Consciousness or something then you’re like maybe I am onto something maybe I and so I think that kind of and she was it was purely online it was almost like this video game you know she was this she created this false character that all these women were worshiping um and then when she had the bankruptcy fraud which again shows that she wasn’t I know I’m painting this picture of like this person who had all the good intentions but I don’t know what balance of you know we can only speculate you’ve never talked to her yeah um but she uh she was she couldn’t leave Hawaii because of she was on probation from this bankruptcy fraud and but online she was this God that all these women worshiped who she cured cancer and all this so I think over time that and um you know they’re willing to pay some someone would just keep buying her program because they’re like oh it’s been so helpful I keep listening to it I feel bad listening to it 100 times without paying again so these you know so it’s a financial interest but also it’s um it feels really good wow yeah I mean money and power what other types of uh yeah what other types of incentive do you need wow that is like I think it’s actually a good lesson both ways one I think it’s a very clear lesson for you know potential members right I think we all have this mentality especially back in the day of like oh if you’re someone that gets drawn into a cult you’re a loser you’re destitute you had no other option which I think we know now is not the case I think it’s typically people that are like a little confused we have sort of like a biological desire to fit in I think there’s a social component like baked into who we are as human beings to be conformist and tribal and like we had said like a lot of those former institutions kind of wrote it away for better for worse and uh so yeah people can easily get drawn in the algorithm again it makes sense right like these platforms on the one hand are so positive because you know let’s say you’re someone that loves Dungeons and Dragons and you live in a place where no one does that they think you’re weird they think you’re up you know some social Pariah and then you can find your digital community of people that love to play this game and it’s awesome or you love Pokemon or even on a bigger level you’re a gay person in a country where it’s illegal to be gay and now all of a sudden you can find a digital community of people that are like you and you can sort of like have comfort in that that’s awesome yeah and then there’s this dark side where people can get drawn in to these gurus that can sort of exploit them and then I think even furthermore people with platforms like I’m even reflecting on myself like a lot of these platforms if you’re someone that is you know creating a name for yourself digitally whether you’re an influencer you know like a Tik Tok influencer you sell makeup whatever there is almost like a like a platform incentive to engage with your audience and create the parasocial like like they tell you like hey comment and respond to everybody and and tell everybody and you know get invested in their lives da da da and I wonder if people are even unknowingly or unwittingly sort of falling into this and then if you have some of the co-founders you know whether it’s some pathology or a trauma that validation feels really good and then yeah you combine that with money and influence it can go off the rails yeah I think there’s a uh at least from my perspective before this conversation like oh the this this woman that’s a cult leader she hatched this whole idea to try to get power and she wanted to be a cult leader yeah that may be true but it also might be just as well that she was you know a well-intentioned spiritual Guru that got validation from the audience and that propelled her to have this God complex that then she espoused to the audience and became a flywheel yep yeah yeah wow yeah I think it is important for for people that have platforms that are like creating content like you and I right to say like hey we do not know the audience yeah like we like we we talk but we don’t have a real tangible relationship and the relationships with the people you actually know are way more important than you know someone that you listen to in your ears for 5 hours you know a week or whatever that is so I think it’s a good lesson for everyone across the board yeah do you have people that you’re like man now I’m worried about cuz you run in the circles of uh people who get all of a sudden like online Fame and influence and um you obviously like in the past like rock stars kind of become their old cult leaders and get groupies and when they’re on tour who the [ __ ] knows what they’re up to um but now you can have that entirely online like you have access to like fans yeah absolutely like what yeah I mean how do you is there anybody now that you’re like I could see them and like give it 3 years then I I need to like check in on them I mean maybe it’s one of these things where like again I think that that that cult word I I like I’m I’m I don’t know which way to go with it my gut instinct is to say like hey everything’s a cult MH and that doesn’t in necessarily mean it’s bad right like if you’re a fan of a sports team and you go to every game and you go to tailgates of games when the games aren’t even in your town just to be with like-minded people that is a cult yeah and it’s not necessarily bad I think it’s ultimately what do people do with the power and can you identify red flags where there’s like you know uh sort of like dissemination of information like hey don’t talk with people or hey don’t you know like if they’re trying to cut people out or if they’re trying to control the information that is you know distributed or if there’s just straight up like hey tell me your secrets and I’ll keep them in my safe little chest yeah or I guess anyone that’s directly offering you some type of like higher salvation or consciousness yeah that to me is like the biggest indicator yeah you nailed it information control thought control um and yeah I alone and the source to Universal knowledge or what can fix you you know yeah like anytime again I don’t know I’m not any way versed in this but like if someone is espousing that like hey I am the source yeah get away yeah but also they’re always pretty good about like being um like hey anybody can leave like I’m not like they always dis there’s a way to deflect it or dismiss it but like yeah and the fellowship I anybody can leave the fellowship and they they’ll insist that they don’t like ostracize but people who’ve left they’re like I lost my community everybody was like afraid to talk to me um and I I cut off my family so like I was I was destitute so I I really had no choice in leaving and then people who’ve left that and I spoke to somebody who he was like I was totally indoctrinated for years and I can’t I’m finally leaving it was like I was a heroin addict for 20 years 30 like he was like if if the cult if the fellowship is heroin I was an addict for 30 28 years um the way he was talk I mean he was giving me the [ __ ] tea he was like I thought he was so out and then um he went back uh and he was in for like a few months and then he died but um related to the organization no no no but I I think it was yeah I don’t I don’t know it was natural causes but um I think he he when I saw he was like there was like this I’m free I’m like I’m I’m clean but I don’t know maybe there was this like underlying underlying misery I think he was very lonely yeah and I’m kind of glad that he he’ already gone through all the misery of the cult and like the abuse and stuff so um you know like at least he died amongst people who he thinks cared about him and felt you know yeah it’s so tricky and then like I think about like my own religious experience like growing up Catholic right like obviously within like the Catholic it’s like hey this is you know God is is the way Christ is our savior and I think I guess you can also maybe look at the fruits like I I am a believer generally speaking that like religion has done good for the world I know this is a a sort of a debatable statement and I know that there’s you know look at Crusades child abuse sure but uh just in general I think most of the religions that have persisted kind of almost like through a uh like a darwinian selection like the ones that have persisted for thousands of years I believe have fruits of positivity that allow it to persist and the ones where it’s like you know hey we’re all going to kill ourselves those will die off yeah so I almost wonder if there’s like a social evolutionary component where if they persisted for a long time the fruits are more positive yeah I I don’t know I mean I’m more like inclined to just humanity is good and evil and uh cult uh religions and Cults are just I mean we’re we’re by Design we need we need Community right and um yeah I don’t know I haven’t I haven’t done that uh this is a way larger debate yeah give me a give me a bong and I’ll I’ll get more like but um but I guess my general feeling is like people need to conform they need Community yeah and so I don’t want to be someone that’s like hey cut off all your communities because that is then then you’re just sort of free and and sort of loose and then maybe you’re more susceptible to getting drawn into a radical Community yeah so I would try to encourage people like hey find communities where the fruit is good yes yeah I mean I think institutional religion has its own issues but um but yeah I I think there’s good to like um when it when there is bigger groups um when there is a sense of like transparency I think I think I just transparency is a big thing yeah like there needs a sense of of checks and balances and transparency and if somebody’s doing something terrible people feel comfortable speaking out right um and yeah you find that more with a lot of mainstream uh institutional religions that’s sort of my point like if you become you know like a presbyterian Christian or even a Catholic and you’re volunteering and you know providing like Aid to the homeless right like the fruits of this are good you’re treating your neighbor as yourself you become Muslim and you’re able to you know clothe your neighbor take them into your home like if you’re actually following these tenants of these major religions and I’m like okay the fruits are generally good yeah now if you fall into a radical sect where it’s like hey commit terrorism hey we’re going to ritually abuse people yeah then I would hope that people would look at the fruits and say oh this is actually negative but again it’s it depends on how you sort of wrap these negative behaviors to say it’s actually for the greater good so I can see and that’s very subjective what’s what’s good and what’s worth the good and yeah yeah I don’t know if there’s a solution like I I would hope that there’s some type of uh like oversight from platforms to say like oh the fruits of this organization are negative but then I don’t want platforms having the subjective uh you know sort of like totalitarianism where they can look at an organization and say oh you guys are you know like questioning this mainstream narrative which is actually bad right like imagine people are like oh this thide we’re given to kids in in England is actually bad yeah and they say hey you’re going against the modern you’re you’re hurting women women are trying to have better childbirth and they’re taking this drug and then we find out that it’s actually negative yeah so it’s like I don’t want to be the guy that’s silencing people going against the lamide you know what I mean so it’s kind of a free speech debate in a way yeah no I mean it there’s a i it’s it’s all wrapped in the First Amendment you know freedom of religion and freedom of press are in the First Amendment like they are in America they can do whatever the [ __ ] they want under the guise of religion um but I can also you know I have the freedom to report on it as long as I’m not um knowingly lying uh then I can do my job yeah and that’s why I’m grateful for people like you that are like on the lookout and saying hey these people are doing [ __ ] [ __ ] like we got to investigate this and look into it so I guess I kind of lean personally as of right now more on the side of like let things be open recognize that negativity could come from them like these groups people are becoming online you know cult leaders and ideally arming people with the tools to identify when things are negative and when they’re not yeah I think it’s going to look we’re not going to change the the wheel of whatever is happening for you know all of human civilization like whatever’s happening is going to happen and whatever platforms are going to fuel feed on that part of our brain like it’s going to yeah the machine I don’t know I’m pretty nihilistic and I think everything is [ __ ] and like whatever like we’re not changing anything C think things get more the more polarization that the worst things are I mean obviously that that’s kind of Cults rise up whenever there’s kind of like a distrust in like in the 60s and 70s there was a lot of the thing same things going on there distrust in mainstream religion mainstream politics so you had a lot of um yeah Cults political Cults religious cults com coming up it’s again it’s like there there was a void there there was this like mainstream way to fill to fill that sort of godsize hole and we all need that because we’ve evolved to need some sense of order and um just a government giving you laws that you don’t really know the reason of it like doesn’t really that doesn’t really work and so you’re like you need like a sense of like good and evil and like there’s a higher power whatever like that’s why we’ve societies that have um had a religious order are the ones that have lived better have lived on um kind of was touching on what you were saying earlier um whenever there’s like a lot of chaos like the grifters fill that void um that’s been happening now there’s a lot of polarization and now like you’re starting to see it in like political ways like a lot of like the sort of CNN and fox pundits that you would never that would like were antagonizing each other now they’re like like I just saw like like Tucker Carlson and Cuomo were like doing a podcast together it’s like I think everybody sort of learned the lesson that like by feeding into that sort of polarization nothing things only get worse and um if you try to find the common grounds and that’s why I say like if your brother is in a radical cult like just try to engage with him and answer questions and like yeah it’s like talking through things and like um cuz yeah you’re not going to push them deeper into it yeah well Jennings I really appreciate this man I’m simultaneously uh I think I’m just horrified actually I was going to say optimistic I mean I am Greatful for people like you uh that is you know that’s shedding light on this kind of stuff um and I think that people should be much more Discerning when it comes to the information that they take in and the groups that they’re sort of uh surrendering themselves to yeah especially as things are you know more digitized and as people are feeling that call of loneliness more and more yeah so yeah this is like been absolutely fascinating are there any closing thoughts or anything that that you want to contribute uh no yeah I’m I’m tapped out uh I’m used to asking people all the questions so I feel like I rambled more uh I talked at you a lot because yeah it’s like I don’t usually um get a position to really think through and connect all the dots so I appreciate you give me a chance to do it absolutely well let’s do this again brother I’m I’m uh unfortunately I don’t think that these organizations are going to be going away uh anytime soon so I would love to to revisit this convo and and dive deeper into it next time thank you again

Truly Right View: Advocating for Free Speech in the Age of Political Censorship

Introduction: What is Free Speech Today?

In a world where political discourse is dominated by big tech, cable news, and social media influencers, free speech is constantly under threat. From censorship of conservative viewpoints to the silencing of dissent on controversial issues, we are witnessing an alarming trend of restrictions on the most fundamental rights of any citizen in our Constitutional Republic: the right to speak freely.

But what does free speech truly mean in today’s context? Are we protecting it, or are we allowing authoritarian ideologies like socialism, communism, fascism, and dictatorships to erode it?

The Constitutional Perspective: Why Free Speech is Non-Negotiable

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution is crystal clear: “Congress shall make no law… abridging the freedom of speech.” The Founding Fathers understood the importance of free speech in preserving a free society. Without it, the ability to challenge government, expose corruption, and advocate for truth would be crushed.

Yet today, under the guise of protecting people from “misinformation” and “hate speech,” powerful institutions are curbing our ability to express ideas that do not conform to their narratives.

Do we not see this as a slippery slope toward authoritarianism?

Shouldn’t we, as citizens, be the ones who decide what we can or cannot hear, not a centralized body or corporation?

Social Media and Cable News: Platforms or Gatekeepers?

Social media was once hailed as the bastion of free speech. It allowed ordinary individuals to share their thoughts, advocate for causes, and hold the powerful accountable. However, over the years, major platforms like Twitter (now X), Facebook, and YouTube have become gatekeepers rather than facilitators of free expression.

Algorithms favor certain ideologies, while alternative viewpoints—especially those with a more conservative or constitutional slant—are shadow-banned, demonetized, or outright censored.

Does this not resemble the tactics of monarchies, communistic or fascist regimes that control what their citizens can see and hear?

Shouldn’t a true democracy allow the free flow of ideas, even if those ideas challenge the status quo?

Social Media Influencers: Fighters for Freedom or Puppets of Censorship?

Many social media influencers, especially those aligned with constitutional values, have become modern-day warriors for free speech. Yet, they face intense backlash, censorship, and de-platforming for voicing opinions that challenge globalist or left-leaning narratives.

How many times have we seen influential voices banned simply for questioning government policies, election results, or health mandates?

Isn’t it concerning that only a select group of elites can decide what is “acceptable” discourse?

While some influencers fall in line with these restrictive policies, others have emerged as champions for free speech, using their platforms to resist censorship and uphold constitutional rights. The question is: Will we support these voices, or will we allow them to be drowned out by corporate and governmental censorship?

The Dangers of Socialism, Communism, and Fascism: A Threat to Free Speech

At the heart of socialism, communism, and fascism lies a common tactic—control over speech. These ideologies have historically sought to suppress dissent, limit expression, and create a monolithic narrative that favors those in power.

Look no further than authoritarian regimes past and present, where dissenters are imprisoned, media is state-controlled, and free speech is criminalized. Can we really ignore the striking similarities between these oppressive ideologies and the current state of political discourse in America?

Is the suppression of speech today not a precursor to more draconian measures tomorrow?

Should we not fight to preserve the right to freely express political, social, and economic ideas?

The Truly Right View: Defending Freedom in the Digital Age

At Truly Right View, we believe in the unwavering defense of free speech as enshrined in the U.S. Constitution. We reject the encroaching influences of socialism, communism, fascism, and any form of dictatorship that seeks to undermine this fundamental right.

Our platform is dedicated to bringing you uncensored news, analysis, and commentary from a truly constitutional perspective. We provide a space where voices that have been silenced or marginalized can be heard, and where you—the citizen—can engage in the free exchange of ideas.

Join the Fight: Sign Up for Our Channel and Newsletter

Do you value free speech?

Do you believe that the right to express your thoughts, opinions, and beliefs should never be compromised, no matter how controversial they may be?

If so, we invite you to join the fight for free speech by subscribing to the Truly Right View channel and newsletter. Stay informed on the latest developments in free speech advocacy, political commentary, and constitutional rights. Together, we can stand against the creeping influence of censorship and authoritarianism.

Why wait for others to defend your rights?

Become part of a movement that fights for the truly free society envisioned by our Founding Fathers.

Will You Speak Up or Stay Silent?

In the end, the future of free speech rests in our hands. We can either stand idly by as it is eroded by corporate and governmental overreach, or we can take action to protect and preserve it.

Will you speak up for your rights, or will you allow them to be taken away piece by piece?

The choice is yours.

Subscribe to the channel for Truly Right View today, and support our patriots shop together, let’s ensure that free speech remains the bedrock of our Constitutional Republic.