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caloa whatever other whatever cartel typically has to take 6% of all of the hundreds of millions or billions of cash dollars they make in numerous cartel crimes whether it be weed fentanyl human child sex gun running whatever they’re into and there’s a bunch of other stuff they’ve added the Chinese said hey we’ll launder for less and you cut us a break and get us those those precursors we need right and they started to exchange and it was 5% if you launder through the Chinese groups and then it was 4% and as of middle maybe 3 4 months ago I’m told it’s 0% Mexicans cartels are laundering their money for no fee through the Chinese however they’re doing that and it’s happening right here all over the country and we’re just like watching this happen and guys like you and me and your old agency and mine we’re fighting the fight as best we can within policy right within resources allowed and we know what we’re doing we’re playing whacka at best the opinions of the guests and hosts are their own and do not represent the opinions of Ironclad the border patrol or the Department of Homeland Security we cut through the partisan talking RS we’re not interested in perpetuating fear we’re interested in seeking truth hearing what’s really going on on America’s [Music] Borderland welcome to Borderland in Ironclad original my next guest is John nors who is a 25-year game warden who wrote a book called The Hidden War as well as he was a guest on our show previously he gives us some updates on what’s going on in his neck of the woods and how he’s supporting native communities and also some of the toxins that are in our marijuana today check it out well John thank you again for gracing us with your presence on our show um you know your your last show was an eye opener for a lot of people I think no one really thought that there was a drug issue internally and that your organization your agency was dealing with it and so to bring that to light was fascinating and I really appreciated that for those who might have missed that and are probably the first time they’re catching your episode would you mind giving a quick rundown of your bio yeah I know Vince great to be back on and see you for round two it’s it’s been a dynamic couple months since we last talked with the election results everything going down on the flooded border which I’m sure we’ll dive into but for listeners and viewers my name is John Norris retired fish and Wildlife Lieutenant out of the Golden State of California um spent half of my career uh doing the traditional game oron stuff then morphed into the special operations in once we started to find cartels from Mexico embedded in our forest destroying the environment armed with massive weaponry and now we as game ordens are now up against the deadliest threat we’ve ever seen um so formed up the marijuana enforcement team the first Special Operations unit dedicated to fighting that fight for our agency um sniper unit Advanced canines you know you name it because of the dangers involved um been retired since the end of 2019 and with the launch of my second book and vinc that you’ve got a copy of hidden war that really allowed me to talk about this issue more freely not only the development of the team but how it affects not just California not just Wildlife but Public Safety everywhere throughout our great nation including right down on that southern border where you at brother um which is always a hot bed item and we’re dealing with that issue everywhere in the nation and it’s just good to be talking to you about that with uh so many Dynamic changes today and thanks for having me absolutely well that’s what we’re here to talk about a lot of the changes uh since uh since you were on the show last was in May uh have the cartel operations in the US gotten worse since we last spoke you know they definitely have um largely because of the way the last administration’s policy was on Border Protection uh I know you and I talked about it a little bit the first time we had a great conversation but those massive numbers of Migrant Crossings you know with embedded portable felons and cartel operatives from numerous organizations continue to flood the Border since we talked um one of the things we started to see besides caloa alisco new generation and the Mexican transnational criminal organizations was this influx of Chinese operatives and not your typical migrant I mean military age males thousands of them with clean passports coming directly from mainland China and not here necessarily looking for that quote unquote American dream and a fresh start from a really hard area where they came up from um these guys were coming across specifically to embed and do a number of crimes which we started to see the last couple of years when I was leaving operational service and really got to notice in retirement this Chinese influx into the cartel weed trade um working handin inand with caloa cartels and other cartels and actually collaborating having the Chinese crime groups and the Mexican cartels now actually partnered up V in America to do a ton of damage and make a ton of money with us as the middleman at our at our expense As Americans um that’s been growing since we’ve talked it’s also been made a lot more public um since we last talked I I was called to Congress a second time to testify and present on cartel impacts on tribal Nations which brought in this element of the Chinese being you know complicit in that problem uh with Calo and other cartel uh we started to see the impacts on tribal Nations even way back when I was doing early marijuana raids and just doing fishing game work in California because of those indigenous populations and those great tribes that had a ton of history and tradition um in very pristine areas perfect for growing you know cartel weed but they had so little enforcement you know you guys were stretched inin on Border Patrol back in the day when you were there and I know your brother Patrol borders and sisters and the ones I’ve had the privilege of working with with you know what’s been going on the last four years I can’t tell you how depressed you know I’m I’m preaching to the choir when I talk about fellow agents that I worked with that are just so depressed not to have the impact they used to by policy well now it’s just flooded even more so with tribal lands being impacted simply because Bureau of Indian Affairs Bia officers are thinner than game wens they’re thinner than border patrol there’s like two guys for a tribal nation that might be you know a quarter of the size of the home state of Mont I’m in right now brother and so they’re they’re right for the Pickin for a cartel faction that’s pushing fentanyl that’s pushing you know toxically tainted cannabis the human trafficking element um women disappearing for sexual exploitation or human trafficking purposes we started to see that over the last 10 years and it it’s intensified these last four years especially um as far north as right two hours 3 hours somewhere I’m talking to you from now in my home in Montana we small tribal commun commities uh are being impacted and just decimated with fentanyl addiction destroyed populations assets being taken and taken back down to Mexico by these cartel groups that will come in and take over the fentanyl trade and this got national news last year and it it really alarmed uh congressional committees and hence my presence there to talk about those impacts from my perspective and experience but people ask Vince what the heck would the cartels be doing as far away from Mexico and get as far north into America America on the Canadian border to go to you know some Podunk little remote low populated area Montana and the answer to that that people just don’t understand is we all know the fentanyl crisis is the big one of the biggest money makers especially for the Mexican factions of those groups a fentol pill in Chicago I don’t know what it goes for you know out of one of these dirty labs in your home state of Texas San Jose Silicon Valley where where I’m originally from $5 $10 a dirty pill in these rural communities it’s $100 a pill because once the addiction starts the demand is there and basically those cartel factions in Mexico realized hey we can go up with no enforcement presence where we know these you know uh Bia officers are so spread out they can’t possibly impact what we can do just by leveraging in on the drug trade and that’s what they’ve done in these tribal communities and not only on the tribal communities Vince but small rural American traditional communities like cisq County Northern California which we had a lot of experience in uh you’re seeing this stuff with the weed trade popping up in Maine in Michigan Pennsylvania um and just dominating that as well the human trafficking going on as well and it’s it’s not getting better but I think we’re about to see the door swing another Direction given the results of the election a week or so ago yeah I want to back you up a little bit you said Chinese gangs have been working with our cartels here in America what what Chinese gangs or Affiliates are you talking about that you’ve heard of cuz I haven’t heard any but that’s something interesting I’d like to dig into yeah I haven’t heard any Nam specifically we just know the Chinese directly whether it’s the Triads whether it’s you know um coming straight from governmental activities within China or individual guys in crime groups I don’t have names either but they have definitely partnered up and my friends in the DEA brought this to my attention about a year and a half ago when it was just starting it hadn’t made news yet and what was happening is Chinese organizations embedded in in America would basically want to get into the weed trade they see lucrative profits in it so we started to see the Chinese the mongs and the Asian crime groups in Northern California especially and I want to go back to what we talked a little bit about in our our first talk because this is all going to make sense of why they’re involved we regulated weed recreationally and tightened up medicinal regulations back in 2016 with proposition 64 in California and like I like to say California is the weed state of not only America of the but of the world because we’re one of six Mediterranean climates on the globe and just like good wine in Napa Valley you know and the Napa Valley Wine California is known for we have that Mediterranean climate so outdoor indoor growing You Name It We Grow really good weed in California cartels knew that and they’ve been in there for years Chinese and the mongs started to move out um crime groups I don’t know the names necessarily but we know they’re vertically integrated we know they’re working very efficiently coming out for from Michigan Wisconsin from the East Coast we hadn’t seen necessarily this influx from mainland China through the Border until recently but they started popping up in indoor and remote private land grow sites as early as like 2017 2018 right after we regulated well everyone said hey you just regulated and now it’s you know a legal a legal product you’re going to break the black market why is this still happening and we did exactly what we should not have done when we regulated cannabis in California and sadly every other state that’s regulating cannabis is following in the footsteps of what we did poorly in my old home state and they’re having the same cartel problems now is we made it a misdemeanor for outdoor or indoor uh illegal growing down from a felony and then we made it an infraction for juvenile offenders which in these cartel grows especially caloa cartel grows the hundreds that I worked you would have miners in there relatives of operatives that were adults learning the ropes and in grow sites and they were armed and they were as dangerous and doing as much damage as adults and now all of a sudden we made the law like a seat belt ticket you know a minor infraction and so any any um criminal organization realized hey wait a minute there is no penalty if we go and take our chances in California and grow this weed for the black market and then we don’t have to risk crossing the border we can still produce down in Mexico but we can produce here within the country and out of the West Coast especially California we’re talking about you know 80 90% of the black market weed that’s going all over the country is coming from these cartel factions so we incentivized them with prop 64 other states did the same unfortunately and it’s heartbreaking man and it’s an uphill battle we’ve been fighting but then you couple that with the the open border and then it just exacerbated four years ago and obviously with covid with the pandemic and everybody on lockdown I think you and I talked a little bit about the mindset of the cartel and you know this is better than anybody culture of chaos they Thrive you know when we have chaos in America we shut down we don’t get to go Patrol we got to lock it up we don’t know you know health and safety standards for a pandemic we don’t understand so they’ve been going nuts since that happened and before and those two things have incentivized it and the Chinese and the mongs learned this and they said hey we can get into this in California because we have a lot of cash we can buy into it we can buy we can pay cash for properties we can start to take over rural properties where there’s four sheriff’s deputies for 300 square miles and they now have to deal with all these grows we’re going to put up and maybe they’re going to take out four a week with search warrants when we’ve got 10,000 say in the most pristine County left on the Oregon border called cscq County and they’re absolutely decimating the county yeah decimating the county to such a point that you’ve got a couple thousand residences veterans cattle ranchers people that want a rural lifestyle they’ve raised multiple generations of their family and now they’re leaving because it’s not safe they’re being extorted for water they’re being told if you you know make any problems for the activity I have here you’re not going to make it home and so they’re leaving and so what’s happening is we have these pristine American within our border counties being run by criminal organizations either Chinese Mexican cartels or a combination of both and how that can possibly be happening with all the resources we have blows my mind like I know it blows yours but that’s one of the reasons we’re talking about the hidden war is it’s it’s always been under the radar this has been going on for the better part of 20 years it’s it’s absolutely inflamed in the last 5 to 10 but it is definitely not on the number one or number five priority list of domestic problems we have and I’m hoping that’s going to change and think it just might now and I have some information on that yeah we’ll talk about that for sure in a second the tribal communities is really interesting to me why is it that the cartels is kind of targeting the tribal tribal communities and why is it I mean we already know the history of some of the tribal communities and so why are they in Easy Target right now yeah the biggest reason is they’re spread out and they just don’t have a lot of resources to combat the problem um you also see a lot of alcohol a lot of drug addiction on some of these tribal communities for multiple reasons um so they kind of are a a easy victim and prey for these cartel groups regardless of where they’re coming from and and it’s not just the weed primarily it’s the Fentanyl and human trafficking that we’re seeing in Northern California in Montana in this this highlight that I’ve talked about on other shows especially US based in Montana and that really got congress’s attention um and at at the end of the day until we can get them more resources because Tribal Police unless there is anou with a state or federal law enforcement agency we don’t work together and interesting story back when we started the marijuana enforcement team and in 2013 when we had our pilot program we had a month-long operation called operation pristine and we worked 30 days straight to prove the worth of the team so we could go full-time and justify it to our Administration the following year and we were working with the 129th we were working with some SF guys at a Moffet field we had the counterdrug task force and the payo helicopter teams that were not deployed so they could work counter drug um and we actually got an invite from the Hoopa reservation a tribe up in Northern California in County on that beautiful Trinity River and the craziest part about that is that we had never really had a good working relationship just between tribal Nations doing their own thing and us on you know domestic properties whether it be public land or private land but we worked together and it was a really magical experience because they reached out to us one because we had a fish and wildlife element and we had an environmental concern over water quality diversion of water poison water decimation of forests Wildlife Etc ET and they were having so many cartel grows impact their tribal lands that weren’t getting it weren’t getting handled that we were in a huge drought at that time in California and they were literally within days of turning on their drinking water and the water they would use to cook and shower with and not having it some facilities actually ran out of water because so much water was being sucked from the rivers from the creeks and all of that like we talked about in the last discussion all that marijuana that the cartels grow in that for Forest have these EPA banned toxins called carbofuran and metapas and and substances like that that are they’re felonies to possess and use in America on agriculture because they’re so toxic they’re nerve agents um and they just destroy tons of water tons of wildlife they’re they’re deadly to humans so the Hoopa reached out for uh for for help the iro did the same thing with us and we had the opportunity in our infancy to rebuild Bridges between domestic law enforcement slm military and Tribal Police and those guys and gals were amazing to work with once we got shoulder-to-shoulder and started you know eradicating grows or cleaning up grows a lot of it yeah we were doing some raids but most of it was these traditional grow s sites FS that had been out there like a decade they have no resources to clean them up so even though the grow is harvested say 10 years ago or 5 years ago and that you know multi-million product made it to the black market had out all the poisons on it a bunch of Unknowing consumers throughout the US in the Eastern Seaboard Midwest where the stuff is sold smoked or ingested that stuff not knowing it was it was poison um now they got all the poisons in the water they got all this Camp trash fertilizers all this destroyed environment water diversions and they weren’t getting touched so those environmental impacts from a game W like me that’s really alarming and to Hunters Anglers anybody that you know recreates in the outdoors and wants to just see that and enjoy that um that stuff was exponentially continuing to be destroyed even though there wasn’t a grow there and that’s where we came into the picture and we weren’t even aware because there wasn’t a lot of data sharing going on between tribal Nations and say the California Department of Fish and Wildlife or us forest service or Border Patrol department of interior whatever and now we’re starting to share and realize hey we got to work together somehow some way and now we’re starting to do inter agency us at the federal and state level with tribal nations with their elders and going out and being a force multiplier and really making a D um and then to see this come full circle brother before this Congressional thing got brought up last year you know 10 years ago and now I’m I’m seeing what’s happening in Montana my new home state and it’s just breaking my heart and they’re even more impacted I think than California was because Montana is so big just like Texas we’re massive up here and we have these little tiny towns that have 500 600 2,000 people and that’s basically a tribal Nation for hundreds of thousands of remote Wilderness Acres and they need help and that’s something we want to implement up here um and tribal Nations all over the country are on that Target list like you brought up and this is why it’s happening and this is something we can work with if we can get those get past the red tape to work with these nations and and that’s starting to happen it really is slowly but surely it’s starting to happen and it’s really cool to see yeah the board Patrol for for as long as I can remember has always had good relationships with some of the tribal lands but it’s also the tribal lands is a is a way of kind of avoiding the federal agencies to come on into the lands and defend it and so there’s times we know there’s positive traffic happening but we can’t get the approvals to get on the land and so there’s always some kind of challenges and when I was younger I actually worked for a fire department uh in a in Native in a native um area and it was just different traffic how they worked like the community of itself has its own culture and so having to learn that culture before working it so really cool to hear um the the the community the native Community I think it’s one that it’s near and dear to my heart that uh you know they’ve kind of been uh pushed to the Wayside for so long and I’m happy to see that there’s building them up again and helping with with some of these issues it’s kind of wild um you mentioned the the toxic that’s tainted in some of the Cannabis is is a public safety issue can you talk more on that yeah and I I’m glad we’re hitting that because we really need to highlight that this is something that um you know like the copy of the book I sent you the second edition there’s a lot of color pictures in that thing for a reason my publisher was really good to like paint a picture with you know tell a story with a lot of really colorful pictures like carbofuran metapos they’re basically insecticide rodenticides kind of a kill anything aside I call it that were developed some of the ingredients honestly were developed during the Nazi regime in World War II for their chemical weapon program so they’re basically nerve agents that do central nervous system destruction they uh they thin out your blood they’re anti-coagulants so they’re basically made to if you ingest any of this poison all that happens in your body um they were made D originally like a 16 to 12 or 12 to 16 ounce container of like a powder of SE metapos or carbofuran was made to be diluted with about 6,000 gallons of water and then sprayed on agricultural crops to keep everything off the crop until it made it to Market well it was found by EPA when they got their technology situated you know about 20 years ago they started to do studies and go whoa whoa wait a minute this stuff even diluted to that level is way too toxic for us to consume whether it’s washed off or on what we’re eating in our fruit and our vegetables so they said nope this stuff can’t be used it’s manufactured it just can’t be used in America um but it is manufactured throughout you know other parts of the world and third world countries especially and it’s still being allowed to be used or you can get it um so this what this stuff does so well on marijuana especially for primarily um the Mexican cartels and we’re going to talk about the Chinese poisons that just dropped that I was made aware very recently within the last year that are as if not more deadly and that element but basically now they have to smuggle these up from Tijana because they can’t get them here so any grow operations going on for Mexican operatives in America not just California but any of the other states where it’s going on they smuggle them up with their Growers they’re tier one Growers from Tijana they have this stuff they know it’s poisonous even though they’re Growers their operatives have being exposed to this stuff they’re still told they have to use it uh and they just they don’t delude it enough I’ve literally seen half of one of these 12 ooun containers poured into a 5 gallon backpack irrigation sprayer like we’ use on our garden and they’re spraying this stuff man and there’s pictures in the book that show a cartel grower all camoed out with a backpack sprayer spraying this on 11 foot marijuana plants behind Mount Hamilton behind the Silicon Valley where I grew up where I actually harvested my first deer as a young deer hunter at 14 years old under tutelage of dad on the same Ranch that I was hunting then as a Sportsman’s Club they’re growing this massive massive cartel grow bro and here’s pictures from his cell phone camera that we seiz spraying the heck out of this stuff and then he’s got a golden eagle which is a very endangered and protected massive Raptor like a bald eagle in California he’s holding it up and taking a picture of to show his bosses I got that right away when it came in that sucker died you know so again Wildlife cops sees that and we’re like oh hell no that’s not cool and it was actually a year later in another grow where I got in a foot pursuit suit with that dude cuz we ambushed a grow and caught him and I chased him down with a backpack sprayer on his back we got into a hand to hand roll down a mountain before I got him into custody and brother no exaggeration I did not know at that time that was that was early 2000s or mid 2000s we knew about these insecticides but we did not know yet about how deadly carbofuran was and he had a backpack sprayer during the the tussle and fortunately it didn’t open up or I might not be sitting here man because we it was crazy um but then I got started to see how bad this stuff is how bad this stuff is to water you know you think well okay that’s what it does to an animal like that and just like in the in the book I’ve got pictures of 400 lb black bears they go into a grow site like below Yos National Park and what the Growers would do is those cartel guys would would take tuna cans they’d be empty but they’d have a little Tuna oil in them and they put a couple drops of carbofuran and a little bit of food and they just put them out as like little landmines perimeter traps so that any animal that goes in towards the grow that might want to eat the plant they they lick up a just a just a a microscopic amount of that stuff maybe just less than a teaspoon and this 400 lb black bear is just frothing up and dying 15 minutes later you got the baby bear her cub that that is exposed now too and up a tree above mom freaking out and the reason I put those graphic pictures in the book and mountain lions and you know the the sheep and things like um the uh The Eagles I just mentioned is it’s it’s a real unifying message when you get to Liberal conservative uh Growers non- Growers Hunters um animal conservationists versus preservationist everybody sees those pictures or you hear that story when I tell it and they go hey I don’t agree with hunting but man I’ll tell you what I really don’t agree with that is no way for an animal to die and if that’s what’s happening in our forest what is that stuff doing to us and Vince we got to remember a couple tablespoons of carbofuran in a small Creek will can literally destroy all the Aquatics in that Creek for miles and that is not an exaggeration and this stuff is all over our forests it’s brought up you know like I said from Tijana smuggled with operatives because everything else they can get here their middlemen are are here with infrastructure with piping with food with weapons they’re good to go they just can’t get that poison and I’m glad you brought it up because it’s out there and to take it a step further lo and behold I start getting some pictures and some really interesting data from my friends in DEA just about a year ago about these Chinese poisons that we started to see in Northern California in Chinese Asian grow houses all Chinese riding on them they come straight from mainland China and they are classified in that same class they’re anti-coagulant nerve agents they’re anti-fungals they’re nasty and’s the point of those sprays those sprays are just to protect the plant from Bugs and stuff yeah well they want to keep bugs yeah yeah have they been able to prove that that transfers over to the human consumption during as as they smoke it whatnot absolutely um what what happens is it it’s put on the plant and it’s put on the bud and there’s again there’s pictures in Hidden War I got a picture of a marijuana plant that’s not quite to harvest it’s got bud on it and leaves and flower and then it’s got like it almost looks like white spray paint or bird droppings you know and that’s it’s drying as a white substance but what’s that was when it was like applied within probably a day when we found that we later learned through our protocol of dealing with these grow sites if we see plants that are that wet even with our n95 masks Nitro gloves all of our you know full full um personal protection equipment it’s still too hot and too deadly and too hazardous to deal with that grow but what happens Vince in 48 hours all that toxic stuff that looks wide or opaque like you know wet on the plant it grows completely invisible it dries so once it’s dry it’s on it this stuff gets processed in the grow it gets dried it gets packaged and it goes back for anybody on the black market to consume now because it dissipates it doesn’t kill instantly we know that but people that are have respiratory issues or any kind of odd things that are developing if they’re a cannabis consumer might want to look very carefully at this I know of at least three or four of our officers that were exposed to carbofuran on a grow entry either just through the air whether it was an aerosol or on a plant itself we didn’t have anybody die thank heaven but we had guys with respiratory issues um you know lose sight for a while uh you know some some nervous stuff and fortunately they’re okay and then when I retired and the book dropped and I could talk about this stuff freely like we’re doing today bro I’ve been getting emails and personal messages for years from federal officers state officers all over our country going oh yeah man I went into a grow house I got treated I know I hit some of that stuff I I’ve never my nervous system hasn’t been right I’m a medical retirement I’m done and I’m not getting any better and I I’m not talking about it I can’t talk about it blah blah blah so this stuff is out there man and we just got to be careful and and now that the Chinese have their own crap you know that’s as deadly if not more so and they’re doing a lot more with the weed trade right now honestly than the Mexican cartels are um for a lot of reasons we got to be careful we don’t just do the film making we do everything we’ve taken a case study of over 30 projects that we’ve done over the past 15 years and we put together what we believe is the most effective and efficient content funnel for Brands they need content on a daily basis they need to be talking to authentic end users we want your team to bring its most challenging problems and allow us and our team to apply our proven methods to your brand to take it to another level you mentioned um are there any new developments in the production and distribution of Fentanyl and methamphetamine in the US anything that you’ve heard of recently the the main thing I’ve heard about is how much more they’re hitting the tribal Nations and and dominating those tribal Nations where they can make a lot more money one thing also I’ve learned um from the fentanyl standpoint is the number of deaths uh you know there’s been this this figure walking around how many Americans are truly dying from this stuff and the last word I got from from my my sources in the DEA that are connected to this and and keeping up on it within the last couple of months 74,000 Americans right now are dying from these dirty pentanyl pills coming out of labs and I’m thinking wow let’s put that in perspective 74,000 Americans is 200 people a day give or take if I do the math and so I’m like while we’re sitting here having this conversation how many Americans are going to die from that whether they’re kids whether they’re you know adults and what I can say that I’ve learned personally is I don’t know anybody now that isn’t if they’re not directly affected by a fentanyl death or a fentanyl overdose from these pills they’re indirectly affected um I have friends and relatives where I grew up in the Silicon Valley and spent most of my life and my career and uh it just breaks my heart you know we’ve had literally kids that you know like your like family members you know your awesome daughter going to law school motivated doing her thing that’s freaking awesome and I have a lot of friends and family doing that with their kids and grandkids and you get a valedictorian from a really good school in the Silicon Valley and she has an injury from a volleyball game or something and knee knee pain takes a fentanyl pill that she gets thinking it’s a pain pill from a friend and goes in to do her homework and she’s a senior and this is actually How The Story Goes this was a year ago or approximately year and a half and uh goes in to do her advanced placement homework she’s got a ton of stuff on her plate she’s already set to go to a great school and mom goes to wake her up the next morning to get ready to go to school and she’s never waking up again and I mean if that doesn’t hit America on every level plus you know plus you know the the less fortunate groups and and everything else with resources um that that’s something that’s getting kind of crazy one other Trend I can talk about and this is just disgusting and disturbing I I was kind of wondering when we started to see this influx of all these Chinese and Mong growers in California and knowing that that area was dominated by caloa the whole time I was working operations right I’m like how are they getting along right why aren’t we seeing more fighting from that as a territorial did did calone did the Mexican groups just give up because they’re still involved in weed it’s not as lucrative as fentanyl but it’s still lucrative they’re not going to give up some money they can make on this and then I come to find out a year and a half or so about a year ago and and even more so on the logistics of it these Chinese groups and these Mexican groups now have basically collaborated to the point to where they’re trading services for services now the Mexican groups are still involved in clandestine weed but they’re backing out of it and giving to the Chinese because the Chinese like doing it they can make cash money they want a ton of money they can launder cleaning in place right here in America it doesn’t have to go overseas in exchange for Vince all the precursor chemicals caloa halisco new and any of the other cartels involved in fentanyl they’re getting their precursors directly from these Chinese groups and then the best part and I I learned this recently caloa whatever other what other cartel typically has to take 6% of all of the hundreds of millions or billions of cash dollars they make in numerous cartel crimes whether it be weed fentanyl human child sex gun running whatever they’re into and there’s a bunch of other stuff they’ve added so about 6% you know to try to launder that money and and and not have it tracked well the Chinese said hey we’ll launder for less and you cut us a break and get us those those precursors we need right and they started to exchange and it was 5% if you launder through the Chinese groups and then it was 4% and as of middle maybe three four months ago I’m told it’s 0% Mexicans cartels are laundering their money for no fee through the Chinese however they’re doing that it’s embedded All Over America those precursor chemicals go right to you know who the weed stays with uh the Chinese they’re getting along great they’re making a ton of money a lot of us are losing our health and our kids and it’s happening right here all over the country and we’re just like watching this happen and guys like you and me and your old agency and mine we’re fighting the fight as best we can within policy right within resources allowed and we know what we’re doing we’re playing whacka at best so this knowledge I dumped on Congress in my first testimony I brought it up again especially when I had the opportunity to R tribal land stuff and now it’s you’ve got some action up there man you’ve got bipartisan Senate and Congress groups looking at investigating this and taxing doj with how many of these cannabis operations that are going down federally have the asianchinese element in them and we want to know the data we want to see the actual reports it’s all been kind of Under Wraps so this is this is a step dude in in in the positive positive direction especially for all the work you’ve done out there on your side and what we’ve done here um it’s a little scary when you look at that type of collaboration and the type of reach they can have because how much presence they have here and how many resour resources they have here throughout America yeah several several things on that it’s just look at how fast the trend you know the TDA trended AUA has spread throughout America and that’s just sh crazy just just just just from that example alone it’s how well the Chinese have also been spread those who are here to try and you know inflict damage or nefarious reasons I think CBP said somewhere around 35 uh thousand have came over uh you know have come through the border illegally that have been processed another number I had was somewhere close to 75,000 in the last four years and so of Chinese Nationals any one of those numbers 75,000 is just insane but even 35,000 if that is a true and factual number uh that is pretty uh pretty devastating to hear especially if a bigger percentage of that is here for nefarious reasons such as the grows drugs whatever the case it might be absolutely yeah wild um what are some of your thoughts on the upcoming Administration you know the political policies that hopefully you know I what they say they’ll plan to do what are some thoughts on that yeah that that’s I’m glad you brought that up because I was definitely going to try to bring it up as well um and Le let’s talk about the new Administration where things were going before the last Administration where what happened the last four years and and where you know the the Trump group is um one thing is I know uh we talked about I was recently on Julian dory’s podcast New Jersey and I know you had just been on it he I didn’t know that until I got to see him well do you know what happened with my episode what’s that yeah I heard you freaking banded every time you said human trafficking yep they so crazy yeah that episode has not even been able to be seen because they kept shutting it down oh brother he’s pushing it in fact when I was in his studio with alisi with his producer and we were talking to you I’m like yeah I know Vince and blah blah blah and we were having how good this convers ation went with you he said yeah do you know what happened to his episode and he literally showed me the ban on the on the production grids I’m like what for S oh you know so but he’s working some stuff to get that back in and he’s pushing hard man the kids wired right and I it’s just funny how like I I’m I’m the least controversial in how I speak on the subject intentionally he said it generically there wasn’t anything yeah just crazy but I’m looking forward to seeing that when I finally can um I haven’t seen your episode yet and mine’s drop until I think December but um I brought up dealing with the like what the trumps have said they kind of said hey you know we’re going to declare war potentially on the cartels I mean they kind of said that in not so many words and this ever since that got brought up it’s been talked about on a lot of other podcasts and etc etc and I actually had uh Julian and alisi pull up I said pull up the definition of terrorism on your screen right there let’s really look at the definition you know using violence right to course for political gain non-combatants for either political or uh you know ideological gain well when I look at what the Chinese and the Mexican groups have done say in Northern California where they’ve literally changed the direction of a community they’ve gotten involved in voting in elections residents have left they’ve changed the demographic and then let’s not forget that economic you know goals kind of go hand inand sometimes with political goals however you read between the lines and I’ve always said I consider this an ecological terrorism where when you talk about the wildlife issues but I think we have a domestic terrorism event going on with the damage are inflicting on Americans either indirectly or directly now does that mean we just unleash the military not necessarily but we have to do something and I know brother you and I talked a little bit about this the first time something that’s a little more targeted and a little more hands-off and a little more people involved on the enforcement side and Ed and not just enforcement we don’t just do this by by by waving aate you and I both know we got to educate we got to bring our kids into this we got to educate them on human trafficking um you know Target indicators fentanyl what these pills can do what this weed does like when I show High School assemblies all these gory pictures of the weed farms and the cartel stuff and kids go whoa I use weed Lieutenant but I don’t know if I don’t get something from someone I may not even smoke another joint I’m like I’m not saying Big Brother that’s not my job guys kids I just want you to know what’s out there and and you don’t I don’t want to see you hurt but more and more importantly don’t be complicit to this criminal group doing this in America um but that’s a really really interesting thing when you look at how we Define this cartel threat and can we make what I call the hidden War a little less hidden and make it a domestic priority um I think you and I dabbled a little bit in our first conversation put this in the top three man you know proxy wars like the stuff going on in Ukraine and all this other stuff we’re doing and putting billions of dollars we could take we don’t give me a quarter of that money you know just give me 25 5% of those multi-billions that have gone over to Ukraine for this proxy war and put it into enforcement multi- agency activities federal state local maybe military where it’s appropriate whether it’s like counter drug that’s here for the right domestic reasons uh helping us out education Rehabilitation all of those things and I think we’d really make a dent and I think we’re on that path that if it’s ever going to happen I think it might happen now and I do have to tell a quick story in 2016 when it comes to the trumps I was at SHOT show you know our tactical trade show that you and I are very familiar with and most of our listeners and viewers are and I there years many many years yeah well it was 2016 our team was two years old and what was I doing there I was doing Outreach but I was looking for equipment you know and and getting my team sorted out on the metf front and uh I was invited with some special ops guys um by uh the owner of an outdoor apparel company kuyu Jason Harriston who’s very tight with Don Jr because Don junor is a big hunter Mountain hunt together I’m a cuyu guy we were using their stuff we were developing tactical lines of stuff with with that organization along with the SEAL Teams and there about 60 of us in the in the outdoor tactical industry or in operations domestic or law enforcement military that were invited to meet with the trumps in Shot Show 60 of us one evening and it was right when Don Sor was about to hit the campaign trail head to the caucuses late January um and my first book War in the woods Jason had a copy of and it blew him away when we started working with kuyu but he said get a copy of the book I want to bring you this thing I want you introduce you to the trumps you got to tell him this story I said well how do they not know this story I mean you hunt with Don Jr he goes they don’t know this story they need to know it and when I met Don junor and Senior with the book and Jason introduced us and I told him who I was and we had a little function there were a bunch of other things going on and I remember Don Jr looking at Jason looking at me and he just looks up and he goes John’s game Wen enforcing Wildlife crimes in California the Silicon Valley and they’re dealing with Mexican cartels and poisons and AK-47 gunfights and he just said how the F do me and my dad not know this and he said that’s exactly why we’re having this conversation Dawn and I Got 5 10 minutes with the man uh we got our did our photos and I said okay let’s see what happens one he wasn’t going to win the election so he but he won the election you know and I remember we were doing sniper training by Design the night of the election because I didn’t want to be around for a bad result and so all of our guys went out and did a night op for calls and I got back at 11 that night my family’s like guess what guess who’s winning the election couldn’t believe it within a month of that brother I kid you not remember Jeff sessions was the AG the first AG in the Trump Administration right when he got elected and all of a sudden we go on complete lockdown in California Sanctuary State don’t talk to ice or work with border patrol what we can’t talk talk to these guys we’re federally deputized they’re federal agents by policy we’re going to share with our border patrol and our Ice brothers and you’re telling us not to so we’re getting this complete denial of shutting down any type of interaction or even talking about cartels in California but now all of a sudden forest service that was in the previous Beatdown now they’re funded with multi-million dollars operation Forest watch right from Trump and sessions and no longer will will a marijuana case us attorneys look at it and go it’s only we in the forest I don’t care I’m going for white dope all of a sudden they looked at environmental crime they put a ton of money into it and now we were working with the feds and literally kicking ass and taking names and shutting down grow recla them so that was a breath of fresh air I know how that Administration is wired that alone I get you know you get my vote for that um I don’t like to get every political events I try to stay out of it I didn’t endorse a candidate I don’t get I stay I I love the way you do it brother I let you put the information out there be reasonable you know we can all lean different ways depending on the depending on the issue and I think we need to look at issues individually I tend to stay more middle of the road but in this case I don’t think there’s anything more urgent with all the other things that have come out in this election result than what we’re talking about today and again thank you for getting into these issues because people can learn a lot from this and not necessarily for political reasons but maybe to help identify that yeah I want this to be more of a priority than some of the other things I think are National money’s going to yeah you know there’s just proven I guess track Rec record of what the Trump Administration has done and what they plan to do uh I’m very curious about their approach and their tact with this subject and how they’re going to handle it uh I would love for them to do it in a way that uh doesn’t ruffle too many feathers but in this conversation it Ruffles feathers no matter what because it’s such a divisive topic because the lack of understanding of the topic right and so the lack of Education of the topic for some you know you know how it is for some reason when you tell people like we want to you know Deport illegal immigration illegal immigrants like all of a sudden their views on that turn into deporting immigrants and like no no no I don’t think you hurt us right and so I’m curious to see how it all goes I really want you know I’m more in a position of kind of standing in the crowd watching and hoping it’s it’s for the best of the the American people um but the conversation with the cartel is a very fascinating one knowing our backgrounds and saying what do we plan on doing as a country are we really gonna con designate them as terrorists and if we are then does that open up the US military to engage and will we be doing that in a way where we partner up with Mexican officials uh which becomes very scary because who is corrupted and who is not in that world so the whole thing uh I think is is very layered uh more so I believe than you know the al-Qaeda or you know going after Isis back in the day with military this is uh this is almost like getting into an argument with your neighbor and hoping it works out you know you know that I like that analogy man that spoton it’s too close it’s too much of a neighbor um you know and and and and you said it really well when you said automatically that hot button you know you get under the skin of oh now you’re going to deport you know immigrants and what about non-cartel and you know and again I always come back to what we are not trying to do is stop legitimate immigration in fact if anything one thing I do like that the administration said they want to streamline the process and give everybody that wants to chase this American dream that should be here hey man flood it you know just bring good safe people in I mean we’re you and I are we’re part of a Melting Pot and I think we’re so blessed to be that I’m not originally from here either man European and all over the place but um but yeah that that’s a very very very provocative question and has to be handled very delicately um because because I think defined or not as a terrorist going into Mexico and sending Special Operations guys in there yeah that could be a long it could be another Bad episode of sakario right sakario 5 or whatever really really bad if if it’s not structured properly but let me ask you something brother from the border patrol standpoint and I’ve already heard from my border patrol friends that are just see letting out a big sigh of relief that hey we’re going to go back to protecting this border saving more lives we’re not going to be processing people not worrying about you know these hundreds of thousands of unaccompanied miners the bodies were pulling out and you were just down there I saw patrolling with the guys with Texas what’s your Vibe down there with with your old homies and and from Border Protection and and what do you like to see out of this and what do you think will happen if you got any idea yeah you know I I think we’re going to have a very similar four years of what you know the original Trump administration had I think it’s going to be very similar to that in that sense uh I think the B agents morale was high in the sense of they they felt like they were doing uh doing a job that that brought them you know satisfaction like it we they were doing the work that they’re supposed to the hard part is that the media uh in those four years of the Trump Administration the media attacked the border patrol and they turned the border patrol into the enemy you know and they told they told people that they were the same as you know the Nazis and they were holding concentration camps and all these Concepts and so my biggest thing is knowing that I think we should be very I think the media really has to have a a reset on how they approach these conversations because they demonized and scrutinize the bfield career field without educating the people on what the job actually is and so in that sense those four years of the Trump Administration might have been good for the agents morale and the sense where they feel like they’re doing the work that they’re supposed to or that they were trained to but the media uh got a hold of them as well and that hurt a lot of the agency as well as recruitment you start having people doubt maybe the career is Justified or justifiable um and you have people really questioning you know the morality of their of their career and I don’t think there ever should be a question of what they do I’ve done it and it it is really you’re spending more time saving lives and and safeguarding human life than you are ever uh in any kind of physical confrontation and just by the way of numbers and and by way of uh you know per capita that agency has more agents being attacked and hurt on a daily basis than any other law enforcement Across the Nation and in vice versa has the least amount of engagements of any other law enforcement in the in the you know in the nation and so you know when when people get the discrepancy of the career field well that makes it hard as a as a career you know as these agents kind of turn on the news and hear something bad about themselves so I really hope that what we’re doing here on this show what my book would be doing and other people out there who are telling the career field of the border patrol I hope it it gives the border patrol uh you know the feeling that they have allies now and you know and they have a voice again yeah it it seems to be going that direction and and you hit it on the head I get into work with you guys and knowing the challenges I liken it to being you got to be the Jack of all trades and you got to be that Community oriented policemen in the wild west you got to work with people you’re saving you’re you’re you’re nurturing more than like you said you know than never having those engagements um very similar to what we use in the game W world do especially with what it’s mored into um and I hope to see the turn because I have a lot of friends in your agency you included and uh the morale stories I was getting even from the guys up here on the Alberta border that I see every day when I’m in in in you know that were sent down there and doing deployments and now they’re back up here going oh we we got to talk I got to just vent I’m like what when you know you guys were whipping you know migrants Crossing with whips on your horses it’s like no no you guys got you know that whole thing and right away I saw how that was being played in the media and how so destructive that could be to you know the that just doesn’t understand and um I do like the fact that there’s already been a big emphasis on getting more of you guys down there yeah and that is so critical um well you know the hard part about that is we need to find people who want to apply for the job for so many years they’ve demonized the career field so that how many Americans actually feel proud to do the service right and so we’re hoping that you know with with efforts that The Bard control has put into place that there is a bigger recruitment for the military yeah let me ask you a question I got a very provocative one I I mean I’ve had so many interviews in the RA in the past two months that um this continues to pop up and I’d love to hear your opinion on it oh gosh several I mean I’ll just give you the list uh an an investigative journalist out of Mexico a economist a also a former um trafficker drug trafficker himself multiple people have stated that they believe the only way to win this War on Drugs is to legalize drugs well what I can say is I’ll I’ll talk about cannabis first and you know it doesn’t matter where I sit on the Cannabis cannabis Continuum personally I’m not a cannabis user um National regulation for that product that 45 plus million Americans are going to consume and they’re not going to stop consuming it whether it’s regulated unregulated IND dispensaries whatever um you know we know for PTSD veterans Etc we know there’s medicinal benefits to cannabis and they haven’t even been really federally documented because the scheduling hasn’t changed um and I do know that if we’ve always said that if you look at cannabis regulation like Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms like wine alcohol and tobacco and regulated that way with a uniform standard of quality of purity of distribution of legality Etc um you would take most of that cartel money and that activity I think out of that faction for a cartel I don’t think we’d be dealing with the weed cartel so much You’ you’d see it more into the Fentanyl and trafficking on the other drugs you know I I honestly don’t know um I know when it comes to especially the opiates and you look at this fentanyl thing and you look at crack and you look at all these different derivative um let’s take methamphetamine man the super meth the P2P stuff that’s made in these 22b dirty Labs that stuff is I mean it’s crazy you know and so organ tried the whole regulation thing with letting the white dope go for a while and that has become an absolute mess in that because they didn’t have the infrast structure to deal with the the backlash on that with whether it was addiction or the crime that followed uh I don’t know that I can say it’s good or bad I think if we ever actually look at National legalization of any of those drugs um beyond the Cannabis Continuum right now all that has to be looked at and there has to be a plan in place by how is it going to be monitored how is it going to be regulated and structured on some level and no state that’s even tried to dabble in it like Oregon have even come close to making it happen so um it’s not a great answer I can’t say yes or no because I just don’t know enough of the rest of it where do you sit on it or or from your standpoint with what you’ve heard from all of us so far yeah it’s it’s funny you know anything that kind of disrupts the cartel’s funding uh is is fascinating to me I’m like oh that sounds like a I would I’d like to try that yeah yeah so it got my attention right and then also by by the fact of you know if we can regulate it we can control it we can manage it then we can also tax it which means then finances go money goes back into our pockets to American people if we could Implement some kind of you know because because once you start doing that I think it takes away from the um you know the idea of like oo this is bad for some people and it starts to become almost a social Norm in that sense not everyone’s not everyone uses drugs not everyone becomes an addict uh and so in that sense maybe you you remove the the the power from the cartel and you put it back in our hands we have to understand and we have to get down to the bottom of why America is the biggest you know consumer of the product already in the first place so once we we have to fundamentally figure that out as a country but as now we have the power to do so with the money to hopefully create other kind of maybe addiction clinics or whatnot or or impatient uh therapy but it’s fascinating the other side of it is well the cartel already knows that there’s more money in a commodity called human beings you’re not exactly and so then if if you destroy one thing dismantle the whole drug uh you know uh Highway then they’re just going to probably double up on human commodity right and that becomes a scary thing because we also are the highest consumer of human trafficking and which is which becomes even more Bonkers you know it and it’s so crazy that of of the leading problems we have with the biggest enemies we Face we’re talking about all these crimes the cartels do they don’t do it because we don’t facilitate it we have the biggest demand like you said whether it’s weed whether it’s fentanyl whether it’s human trafficking child sex whatever and you bring up a very very good point you know could that take it out of the cartel’s hands and why do we have these addictions anyway and again I look at you know the big Pharma debacle with oxycodon and everything else you know and it’s not addictive and now you’re starting to see all these documentaries and feature films made about how that went down you know and you’re like okay well then basically our own corporate pharmaceutical structure has been somewhat if not very much complicit in this acceptance of a norm right brother so you hit it on the head that and if you’re going to take that away we’ve already incited this problem so who do we put it back on to facilitate these legal drugs and is it going to be structured carefully where we don’t have another you know big Pharma profit driven versus addictive and treatment and now you’re decimating communities um because it did become a norm it has become a lifestyle um especially with the kids right that pain pill that you know that comes from Big Pharma whatever it may be and hey it’s got to be good man my my dad takes he was injured it’s a painkiller prescribed by a p one problem what what we always fail to acknowledge is how alcohol is been legal and it’s one of the biggest killers of our culture of our time of even beforehand and that’s legal and that’s barely regulated and it’s it’s culturally okay in the Latino Community to drink at a young age you we’ve indoctrinated that into our culture as if oh wait yeah but that’s just drinking no big deal weed or this is cocaine it’s like wait a minute out you don’t you don’t necessarily die from an opiate overdose because of the opiate is is toxic you die because respiratory distress and like but no alcohol is toxic and every time you drink it you’re you’re partly killing yourself right there’s a toxin in that so it’s a very strange way that we look at all of this yeah I I I I think diving into you know where the real corporate is and what what is really going to be the solution that’s reasonable like we can throw a ton of resources out of it we can have the right mindset from the administration I definitely know the American people spoke in this election and I know that the mindset of generally all so much more of a a dominating percentage right a massive uh percentage made a choice here and I just hope we look at everything comprehensively and it is it’s alcohol abuse it’s this thing on cannabis and are we going to reschedule Canabis are we going to study it more are we going to try to nip that one in the bud and you know not forget about alcohol because we always do you said it really well we just forget about alcohol it’s so widely accepted but we’re having more deaths more violence more problems from that than cannabis overdoses or violent encounters or you know drunk driving or whatever we truly are from the alcohol standpoint suicide y yeah it is um but right before the election and I don’t know if you heard this figure when we were talking about the Border you know control the Border we got to stop the flood we know how much bad stuff is getting in it’s in right and now it’s a domestic problem and they’re saying even if we got on this thing tomorrow which Trump has said we’re going to do and we do this for the next decade it it’s going to take like a decade to sort out who’s here properly Who’s involved in criminal organizations what the spin-off is I mean that is a daunting task man for any Administration and that’s not going to cost a couple of dollars you know but all those different issues of why they’re here and why we’re facilitating some of these markets and why we are the the ground for their money has to be addressed and it yeah it has to be addressed and I you brought up some really really good points on National regulation or let’s say legalization of all drugs and it’ll be really interesting brother to see what happens the next two three four years uh when absolutely kind of the the cooling off period of the transition has happened and we’re well underway in 3 four five months I’m open for the best man what what I like is that I think what the nation has shown is that they do have the power to to vote Yes and in four years or in three and a half years if we’re not happy we’ll do it again absolutely that’s to me is what’s exciting is like yeah in three and a half years if we sit here and be like that sucked too let’s change it again we have the power to do so and I think that put the power back in our hands knowing that our votes do matter yeah no it it felt good to see that with the election results and the the a figure I saw today that the biggest demographic of Voters were the 40 to 60 year old Americans of Our Generation you know that we came up you know through the Reagan Administration we came up through the 80s and the 90s and we saw all the drama overseas and we saw the global war on terror we saw recessions you know we’ve seen enough of it we’re not too old you know and we’re not too young not to have had any Trauma from that and uh I mean America spoke man it was uh it was good to see and and I agree with you um we better see some significant flips and I don’t think it’s hard to make a significant flip there’s a couple things we could do right right south of you that that isn’t rocket science you know I think we were there four years ago because I saw it starting in motion when I was on the border myself doing some work and uh um let’s see and cross our fingers for sure yeah absolutely well brother again thank you so much thank you again for gracing us with your presence and your expertise on the subject always good to see you Vince thanks for having me on it’s an honor I’m sure we’ll talk soon yes sir better brother thank you for listening to Borderland in Ironclad original don’t forget to like and share and tell your friends also if there’s any guests or topics you’d like me to cover please put those in the comments and we’ll do our best to get them to you [Applause] [Music]
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